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New FAQ dropped

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#1
Danigral

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The new FAQ was dropped just now. http://www.fantasyfl...ort/CoC-FAQ.pdf

Most notably, Things in the Ground received an errata and removed from Restricted list. The Festival, Shocking Transformation, and James Logan, were added to restricted list. And Mage's Machinations did not received the anticipated errata to work with Hall of Champions, but instead received further clarifying errata.

I'm a little awed that nothing really was done to neuter abusive mill decks, like Tom's that won Gencon. So does this mean that Damon and Brad think there are answers to it in the current card pool, and if so, what do you think they are?
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#2
Tragic

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wow!

Things in the Ground (F31)

Should read:“Exhaust and sacrifice Things in the Ground...”


lol @ the Festival getting restricted :) .. but Shocking Transformation! That was a bit of a surprise.


I'm a little awed that nothing really was done to neuter abusive mill decks, like Tom's that won Gencon. So does this mean that Damon and Brad think there are answers to it in the current card pool, and if so, what do you think they are?


The answer is already in the card pool in Syndi. Well a answer anyway.

#3
Danigral

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It seems that the FAQ contradicts some of the text on the discard-pile effects from KatG.

(2.9) Limit 1/Once
“Limit 1 per…” is a limitation carried by cards whose effects are triggered from out of play. A card of that name can only be triggered 1 time per stated time frame. “Limit once per…” is a limitation carried by cards whose effect are triggered from in play. That card’s effect can only be triggered once per stated time frame. If the effect of the card with either limitation is canceled the limit has still been met for that time frame.

So for example, cards with an effect triggerable from the discard, such as Yithian Scout (TKatG), Vortex of Time (TKatG), and Studying the Void (TKatG) should have the limit 1 per phase, not limit once. Correct? If this is errated to limit 1, then you could only trigger it 1 time even if you have multiple copies in the discard.

#4
Danigral

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The answer is already in the card pool in Syndi. Well a answer anyway.

If you're referring to Specimen Bags (AtMoM), I don't think that that is very effective. One support destruction and you are worse off. At most it delays the inevitable, unless the strategy is to try to close your eyes and rush and pray that your opponent doesn't get that support destruction in time.

#5
Tragic

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not if your running Guardian of the Key (SftSK). The Syndi deck is basically a yard denial. It picks things out of the yard and stops things going in. It doesn't take the combo long to get running and then the attachments are pretty secure. The deck dose very well vs the mill deck.

#6
Karrius

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What cards are you referring to? Because Specimen Bags isn't just weak vs support destruction, it's also weak vs creature removal, and if you're sepnding two less-popular cards to counter one trick, you're going to be weaker elsewhere.

Specimen bags doesn't even help unless creatures are destroyed, which yithian mill doesn't have to worry too much about.
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#7
Danigral

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@Tragic - maybe you're talking about Trophy Room (MoE) to pull Yithian characters from the discard? I still don't think that will work well because of same support destruction, and because half the yithian cards played are events/supports.

x3 Snow Graves in every deck again? At least it's free and doesn't depend on the situation. Maybe in combination with Trophy Room you can slow them down enough to eek out a win.

#8
Karrius

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Maybe he's talking about Trophy Room (MoE) to pull Yithian characters from the discard? I still don't think that will work well because of same support destruction, and because half the yithian cards played are events/supports.


This isn't good to get rid of Yithians, it's good to get rid of the stuff that will cause Yithians to come out. It's still too slow and vulnerable, but it can buy time. You're likely using your first turn 2-play to play it, however, assuming you even have it, so you're still going to have problems getting up to speed...

#9
dboeren

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Having had some time now to read through the changes, I'm disappointed that there was really no change to from-discard effects. I had expected to see something to the effect that a card has to already be in the discard pile at the time of a trigger in order to react to it.

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps FFG felt there was insufficient time before Worlds for people to redesign their decks and is holding changes until afterward?

#10
Karrius

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The only thing I can think of is that perhaps FFG felt there was insufficient time before Worlds for people to redesign their decks and is holding changes until afterward?


It's not like the changes they did make are small. Putting the cards they did on restricted (especially as I bet most shub decks are running festival + shocking transformation + another restricted card currently) changes stuff a ton.

#11
konx

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I'm a little awed that nothing really was done to neuter abusive mill decks, like Tom's that won Gencon. So does this mean that Damon and Brad think there are answers to it in the current card pool, and if so, what do you think they are?


Isn't this part made for that?

A card whose effect triggers as a

response from the discard pile may

only be triggered once per met trigger

requirement.



How do you understand this??


Konx


#12
dboeren

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It's not like the changes they did make are small. Putting the cards they did on restricted (especially as I bet most shub decks are running festival + shocking transformation + another restricted card currently) changes stuff a ton.


They might be. Personally I think Festival is very common, Shocking Transformation somewhat less so. Anyway, losing one of these does not impact the whole deck the way that changing how "from discard" effects work though. You're probably going to be able to swap out one card for another and still be relatively intact whereas if there had been a change in how the from discard effects worked you might have to chuck the whole deck and start over.


Isn't this part made for that?

A card whose effect triggers as a response from the discard pile may
only be triggered once per met trigger requirement.

How do you understand this??


It means that you cannot trigger the same response multiple times for the same trigger. Due to the discard pile having no memory, previously this was possible (just nobody noticed it until Tom pointed it out). At Gencon, they made an announcement before the tournament started that this rule would be in effect that day. Now they're making it an official rule. It's a good step, but I think many of us were expecting the update to go further than this.

#13
Danigral

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It means that you cannot trigger the same response multiple times for the same trigger. Due to the discard pile having no memory, previously this was possible (just nobody noticed it until Tom pointed it out). At Gencon, they made an announcement before the tournament started that this rule would be in effect that day. Now they're making it an official rule. It's a good step, but I think many of us were expecting the update to go further than this.


Yes, this is just canonizing the "emergency" ruling at Gencon. It does nothing to stop triggering multiple Yithian Scouts or Studying the Voids for each copy. What's strange is that FAQ 2.9 specifically says that Limit 1 per... is for triggers out of play. If these cards had the Limit 1, then they could only trigger one time no matter how many copies of the card were in the discard.

#14
Tragic

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the deck works fine. Give ti a go.

It uses support protecting and character protection. It could be considered a combo deck I guess as it takes a few cards to get running but it works very well vs YithMill. YithMilll is still the strongest deck around, this is no argument... but there is already a deck that deals with it very well, not perfect but well enough to win regularly. So in time maybe...

but yeah that yog box ruined the game for us. The few people I know who played gave up after it. Took us about 5 seconds to make that retarded deck Tom used and it just turned most of us off. All those yithians should be banned. They killed a otherwise fantastic game

#15
orso

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The Festival on the restricted list was expextable I think.
Shocking transformation: a bit surprising, but ... okay... guess it will limit some nice synegies with and between different faction, what i personally find a bit pity.
Things in the ground: seriously, it has turned into a different card. No? Now combinable with Jamburg, but a 2cost and just oneshot... :(

It seems that the FAQ contradicts some of the text on the discard-pile effects from KatG.

(2.9) Limit 1/Once
“Limit 1 per…” is a limitation carried by cards whose effects are triggered from out of play. A card of that name can only be triggered 1 time per stated time frame. “Limit once per…” is a limitation carried by cards whose effect are triggered from in play. That card’s effect can only be triggered once per stated time frame. If the effect of the card with either limitation is canceled the limit has still been met for that time frame.

So for example, cards with an effect triggerable from the discard, such as Yithian Scout (TKatG), Vortex of Time (TKatG), and Studying the Void (TKatG) should have the limit 1 per phase, not limit once. Correct?

Yes, I think you're right.
They trigger from out of play(discardpile) and referring to the text it shoult have the 1 and not the once.
(As long it doesn't mean that it can't trigger from out of play though it has the once and not the 1... ;) )

If this is errated to limit 1, then you could only trigger it 1 time even if you have multiple copies in the discard.

Well, I'm not sure, unfortunately the 1 and once definition hasn't been adepted to the Star Wars explanation, which I find is clear and good to understand. It looks like the biggest difference in Cthulhu is the place where the effect/ card is triggering from. 1=out ofplay, once= in play.
If you have one or more copies of a cards seems not to be important... I would understand it as:each card triggers its effect. Independent if 1 or once.
I'm also not really sure what exactly is meant with the stated time frame... or how it is defined in detail and rule relevant aspects and details?...

Having had some time now to read through the changes, I'm disappointed that there was really no change to from-discard effects. I had expected to see something to the effect that a card has to already be in the discard pile at the time of a trigger in order to react to it.

Yes, I was hoping for something like this, too. ... still something to discuss about! ;)

A card whose effect triggers as a
response from the discard pile may
only be triggered once per met trigger
requirement.


Really, this was not clear and really needed a rule/FAQ?! Crazy! (A bit too much of rule bending and stickling. Nothing personal against anybody!) Looks selfevidend to me. But good to have it confirmed now. ;)

Perhaps in Cthulhu there are always new surprises and discussable things because Yog and other interdimensional entities are making it a little bit harder to point out something concrete and simply clear?... Who knows? ;)

#16
orso

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but yeah that yog box ruined the game for us. The few people I know who played gave up after it. Took us about 5 seconds to make that retarded deck Tom used and it just turned most of us off. All those yithians should be banned. They killed a otherwise fantastic game


Honestly I think the Yithians are okay. IT's the Interstellar Migration (TkatG) that really makes the most trouble.
I really had expected to see it on the restricted list! And I don't know why it isn't on the list?!... In addition I would have expected an addition of 1 per turn (with star wars explanation of 1).
If it would be on the list, the combination with the Festival and Jamburg is no longer possible and I think the deck would be slowed down imense. So it is really possible to deal with it or "overrush" it .
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#17
Jhaelen

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Well, I am extremely disappointed by the FAQ. It's not only the third time in a row it wrecks my candidate for the European Championship since it now has three restricted cards, it also does _nothing_ to weaken Yithian decks. I'm speechless and really no longer looking forward to the tournament. So apparently, they want everyone to play Yithian decks, now? I cannot fathom what they're thinking. I'm really annoyed.
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#18
Danigral

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The only thing I can think of is that perhaps FFG felt there was insufficient time before Worlds for people to redesign their decks and is holding changes until afterward?

I'm starting to think that they just didn't have time to properly vet big changes to the environment that would come from making fundamental mechanic changes. What with the designers all playing in the Netrunner tour. I hope this doesn't cause players to eject from Worlds. :(

#19
Unnamable

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We already have three local players not returning this year because of it being scheduled on Thursday and now two new players that were only maybes after the GenCon debacle are likely no-gos after this faq and they have free passes after winning LCG regionals! Didn't Terror In Venice actually improve Toms' deck?! Okay Tom, quit lurking and speak up! I know you're reading all this. ;) Are euro-champs being flown in this year? Could be 3 rounds of swiss and a final this year!

All those yithians should be banned. They killed a otherwise fantastic game


Considering all the failures, I would like to take that comment a lot less serious than I am currently able! :(

#20
Zephyr

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I like those changes.
TitG on restricted was pretty close to TiTG banned. This new version might see some play if you combo it right. It is probably too weak to be competitive, but so was old TiTG with restriction on it. And maybe without taking restricted slot it can be used to some interesting one time tricks.

Festival had to be restricted, no doubts about that

Shocking Transformation -> Logan was the stupidest thing that could be splashed in any Shub without taking restricted slot. Now its banned so one cheap combo play less. Also means you can print better attachemnts without logan getting them for free.

Also Transformation being anytime tutor + bypassing cost, resource match and/or steadfast is quite problematic, 3+sacrifice is a cost, but i do think its a card that deserves it. Especially if you want to print strong hi-cost non AO cards, and human factions could use such cards.

Logan as well, i do think Agency needs more good 4-5 cost guys. Logan is crazy good, there is just too little sense in getting this high on domains in Agency... hope there is agency pack coming.

Now only Y-train left to deal with. Quite disappointing it isn't banned yet. Maybe they want players to try beating it without erratas first, but im quite convinced Migration is just too stupid to stay.

Also even if this syndicate counter works, how much does it have to sacrifice, and how much Y-Train limits possible deck space... maybe new cards will have less specific fixes available for all factions, like reshuffling discard into deck neutral or something... we'll see.
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