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Research and Destroy

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#41
arkhaminmate

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haha. yeah i'd realised the Khopesh / Voros combo didnt quite time right VERY soon after playtesting began, but from this the idea to make the Khopesh really work for me was born linked with the reality of drawing cards and possible free play's from it's use (enter cards like the Artifact of the Lost Cities (SoM) and Naaginn (TbtA), Uroborus (WaB) and all the other free Characters). This little gem re-iterates why the Khopesh is on the restricted list for me.

Even so, with a lot of low cost Misk Characters in a very low combat icon deck, and a couple of Feeding Frenzy (TC)'s, i still found it fairly easy to trigger the prophecy, and in a couple of cases possibly won me some games when a shocking shuffle had all my khopesh's and free play's down the bottom of the deck (pre Flooded Vault (TiV) days - but i have a habit of making connections the long way around that they upgrade with a card after the fact just to annoy me). Plus it satisfied my need for some sneaky goblin trickery with card interactions (i love pulling Characters from my deck and putting them straight into play !).

but anyway, enough about that and like i said, i'm sure it's nowhere near as efficient as the TIV version, but at least i know i'm on the right track !!
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#42
Wilbur

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[O]ne thing led to another and I soon had become “Epic Loot: Tokyo Branch”. Several conference calls later, and 1-2 sit-ins on games and their 4 (which then became 3) players were training on this deck.


(*3) To the best of my knowledge, the deck went 3 for 4 (75% win rate) against Yithians at Worlds


Sorry, my math is all jacked up. When you said your deck had a 75% win percentage, did you mean that the single copy of your deck beat three out of four yithian decks? Or did you mean that three GrahamHillians came, faced four Yithian mills (apparently), and then got beaten in the final? Or are you saying that any GrahamHillians faced any Yithians four times, with Graham Hill's mastery of the Universe confirmed at a precise 75% rate, just as the data had predicted? I'm sure, given your ineluctable calculations, that your number is right on the money, but I'm just too dumb to make that one work out. Please explain.

#43
Wilbur

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[YITHIAN MILL]: ((1 of 3) & (1 of 3) + Dist) || ((1 of 3) & (1 of 5 where N = 18))

(*2) In COC, “1 of 3”&”1 of 3” is –in my vernacular – a “lottery ticket deck”. In less derisive language, it means that the deck should statistically fail enough times to not be able to win a tournament regardless of the opponents decks. Basically a person who plays this deck is no longer playing the game or strategizing, they are now merely “flipping” – against the odds – to win.


This is your statistical oracle. In less derisive language, it means that the decks which have lost to the Yithian mill in 2013 are actually, by GrahamHillian fiat, THE BEST!

#44
arkhaminmate

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apparently im not needed Wilbur.

got interested so dug up my old 'Steak Knives' (EDIT: i renamed it) deck to check the differences between them. yeah, my version certainly isnt as 'statistically' perfect as 'Research and Destroy', but some might be interested on the take with all its imperfections (due to either lack of experience / attention span for details or the craaaaving for all those little synergies). pretty sure it was the latest version and again it was pre - TIV 'era'.

2 x College Prospect (SoK)
3 x Degenerate Serpent Cultist (TWB)
3 x Alternative Historian (SoK)
3 x Research Assistant (***) COST:1 SKILL:1 - 1 INV icon (ready and draw 1 when Tome activated)
3 x Naaginn (TbtA)
3 x Archaeology Interns (IT)
1 x Eschatologist (SoK)
2 x Lucas Tetlow (SoK)
2 x Cthuloid Spawn (SoM)
3 x Dreamlands Fanatic (ItDoN)
1 x Andrew-Chapman (TKatG)
3 x Matthew Alexander (SoK)
3 x Professor Morgan (DD)

2 x A Voros Hal'l Jon (SoK)
2 x Feeding Frenzy (TC)
3 x Deep One Assault (Core)

2 x Apocalyptic Visions (SoK)
1 x Atlantis (SoK)
3 x Artifact of the Lost Cities (SoM)
3 x Khopesh of the Abyss (TSS)
2 x Temple of R'lyeh (NN)


although a bit more cumbersome than 'Research and Destroy', i guess what i was going for was basically the same with the option of 'digging' for ANY required cards (one triggered A Voros can set up a nice Apocolyptic Visions / Eschatologist / Atlantis hurdle for a turn or 2 against some decks as an example), especially after the initial rush was expent (which can happen VERY quickly, leaving you with a lot of drawing cards for no free Characters - not that this is bad !!), and accepting the fact i still possibly hadnt managed to win. had some stall effects that also helped with the triggering via Cthulhoid Spawn and Feeding Frenzy, but i'm sure the 'Karnaugh Map of Kadatheron' would have conniptions over its efficiency. still, digging for a card when you really really need it (like Andrew Chapman against a fellow destruction deck or a DOA when Flux Stabiliser has you pinned) can be worth an even trade in Character numbers i feel.

i would definately consider swapping Research Assistant for Obsessive Insomniac, though the certainty of an extra card draw (as opposed to the possibility), would SEEM to come at sacrificing speed, INV icons, ability to commit (ie not exhausted to trigger), possible resourcing ease and another cheap A Voros chump. but meh, the numbers are not mine to command and im sure it would work out more worthwhile to do so. from memory i did have Uroborus in the place of Cthulhoid Spawn at some stage, but got annoyed when multiple copies showed up while my 6 serpents hid down below during the rare game.

anyway, cant really lecture on it. i did absolutely no mathematical analysis or statistical approach to card efficiencies, have no desire to delve into these realms, and just built what looked good to me and what had the right amount of synergies for my taste. and im sure it shows in the comparison. hope you can appreciate though.
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#45
Darksbane

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Please keep the thread on topic. I'd prefer not to have to delete more posts out of this thread...
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#46
arkhaminmate

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:( there goes all the posts saying 'howdy arkham - good to see you again'. boo hoo.

#47
Wilbur

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Alright, I'm done. But the last post you erased was largely a quote from the original post. I'm not sure it can be characterized as off-topic. See you guys at GenCon.

#48
Carioz

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2 x College Prospect (SoK)
3 x Degenerate Serpent Cultist (TWB)
3 x Alternative Historian (SoK)
3 x Research Assistant (***) COST:1 SKILL:1 - 1 INV icon (ready and draw 1 when Tome activated)
3 x Naaginn (TbtA)
3 x Archaeology Interns (IT)
1 x Eschatologist (SoK)
2 x Lucas Tetlow (SoK)
2 x Cthuloid Spawn (SoM)
3 x Dreamlands Fanatic (ItDoN)
1 x Andrew-Chapman (TKatG)
3 x Matthew Alexander (SoK)
3 x Professor Morgan (DD)

2 x A Voros Hal'l Jon (SoK)
2 x Feeding Frenzy (TC)
3 x Deep One Assault (Core)

2 x Apocalyptic Visions (SoK)
1 x Atlantis (SoK)
3 x Artifact of the Lost Cities (SoM)
3 x Khopesh of the Abyss (TSS)
2 x Temple of R'lyeh (NN)


Hi Arkham, happy to see you! ;-)

If I may comment, without an Uroborus available here the Degenerate Serpent Cultist sticks a bit as the odd man out. Not that it is not a great character on its own (that critter is one of my all time favourite), but given the structure of the deck I am curious on why you choose it over, say Innsmouth Troublemaker.

#49
Danigral

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Alright, I'm done. But the last post you erased was largely a quote from the original post. I'm not sure it can be characterized as off-topic. See you guys at GenCon.

And after a night of fitful screams, the yellow madness receded, and he returned to the shadowed depths of his padded cell...
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#50
arkhaminmate

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thanks Carioz. good to see you too. yes, the Troublemaker was in a previous build, and by rights it might be a better card.

the reasons i went with Serpent Cultist were that :

1) it filled the 1 cost Cthulhu spot for cheap Temple sacrificing.
2) i already had too many 1 skill Characters for my liking. as it stands its not devestated by the Y'ha-nthlei statue but Troublemaker would tip it over i think.
3) it has a terror icon and no combat icon, which lends it to being used as a Feeding Frenzy chump against any deck.

Uroborus was a tough one for me. using A Voros i needed some more 'dual player' removals in the deck, and Cthulhoid Spawn seemed more crucial to getting the free Characters (or crucial 2 cards) than another free Character itself. it also gave the deck some much needed backup for the Temple in removing hard to kill Characters. i'll admit not a 'statistical' choice in all likelihood, but it was just where i was up to i suppose playtesting it.

any more queries fire away. it was amongst the last crop of decks i was running / refining when i stopped 3 months ago, and im not totally convinced that it was ever finished properly. from memory there was a query about the overall effectiveness of Atlantis / Apocalyptic Visions and the 'strength' and reliability of the 'pay 1 each turn to cancel the opponents most powerful / game changing triggered effect' combo they made with the Eschatologist (it was pretty neat when it appeared though, which it generally did mid game after some digging). anyway, they could've been replaced with the 3rd A Voros and 2 x Ipiutak to add another layer of 'protection' - this would then make Obsessive Insomniac a better choice over Research Assistant. but i think i did ok without TIV in getting the fundamentals to work.

#51
Danigral

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Where did you publish this 'Die, die, die' decklist Arkham? I don't remember seeing it...

Yeah, I'd agree that without Uroborus, the Temple isn't nearly as useful or as efficient, since then you're depending on recurring Naaginn, and you only have 3 DOAs, so you'd have to depend on your opponent trying to destroy supports.

#52
Carioz

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the Temple isn't nearly as useful or as efficient


Sorry to answer only to a single sentence, but yeah Temple is a wierd card. It is not that it is bad, it is just that on paper it's not something to write home about. Actually it is one of those cards which require the right deck to really perform above average and I am always on the verge of cutting it when making decks.

#53
arkhaminmate

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Where did you publish this 'Die, die, die' decklist Arkham? I don't remember seeing it...

Yeah, I'd agree that without Uroborus, the Temple isn't nearly as useful or as efficient, since then you're depending on recurring Naaginn, and you only have 3 DOAs, so you'd have to depend on your opponent trying to destroy supports.


personally i found Uroborus a bit too dependent on circumstance for my liking with only 6 serpents in the deck. on occasion he was just a jam in my drawing when serpents weren't out to play. i included the Temple basically as an AO / Invulnerability remover for after the Khopesh had done its thing. when the Khopesh leaves play the Naaginn triggers for the Temple / AO finisher.

this deck was under playtesting after discovering the removal / draw / free play mechanic in august (the initial post that i quoted). it wasn't finished (and i didnt try before putting it up) when i got the heebie jeebies and announced my hiatus. so it never reached the deck lists. i didnt even have a proper name for it (which im now toying with as STEAK KNIVES - get a free set here - haha). but then again, ive got over 200 decks, so you haven't seen the half of them Danigral !!

#54
Danigral

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this deck was under playtesting after discovering the removal / draw / free play mechanic in august (the initial post that i qouted). it wasn't finished (and i didnt try before putting it up) when i got the heebie jeebies and announced my hiatus. so it never reached the deck lists. i didnt even have a proper name for it (which im now toying with as STEAK KNIVES - get a free set here - haha). but then again, ive got over 200 decks, so you haven't seen the half of them Danigral !!

Do you have a link to the thread where you posted? I'd like to see the conversation around it.

#55
arkhaminmate

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sure: http://www.cardgamed...eck-suggestion/

it was really just a flash in the pan of misguided inspiration about a combo that didnt quite work, and didnt receive much aknowledgment to be honest, but the theory was sound, and after investigating a bit it was evident that a remove / draw / play mechanic was indeed viable so i did the first build and started testing. then i stopped playing a week later and forgot about it.

its interesting that both this deck and the yithian deck use the seemingly new 'tech' of playing cards from the deck before they're even 'drawn' so to speak, and if there's any variations to this i'm sure they'll pop up very soon.

#56
Danigral

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sure: http://www.cardgamed...eck-suggestion/

it was really just a flash in the pan of misguided inspiration about a combo that didnt quite work, and didnt receive much aknowledgment to be honest, but the theory was sound, and after investigating a bit it was evident that a remove / draw / play mechanic was indeed viable so i did the first build and started testing. then i stopped playing a week later and forgot about it.

its interesting that both this deck and the yithian deck use the seemingly new 'tech' of playing cards from the deck before they're even 'drawn' so to speak, and if there's any variations to this i'm sure they'll pop up very soon.

Ah yes! I remember this thread now. Thanks! Yeah, didn't seem to have a lot of conversation. :(

#57
arkhaminmate

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yup. hidden within all my innane chatter and 'inferior' decks, you might just find an epiphany of inspiration. haha.

im actually not surprised that it didnt make much of a ripple. those that realised what they were looking at would've kept pretty quiet about the fact i think.

i suppose i feel 'kinda' bad for pointing this out. all those years with the cards and formulas and equations and mathematical analysis bouncing around in his head, and then 3 months before it comes to fruition to be unleashed upon the world some upstart trick deck builder pipes up 'hey, how about we use the khopesh to trigger draws and free plays' in the 5 minutes it took to think of. hee hee hee. sorry Graham !!

i guess you WERE lucky though in the fact that nobody listened......

#58
dboeren

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I haven't built the deck yet or tried it. Our game night here is Tuesday so I may be able to build it tonight and try it out depending on how things go.


Just to report back on this - I brought the deck to game night but wasn't able to try it out. I was rear-ended on the way to the game store (very little damage but had to stop and do all the usual accident stuff), got there late, and things just sort of went wonky from there. Next week there won't be any Cthulhu due to a tournament at the store.

#59
Jhaelen

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I was rear-ended on the way to the game store (very little damage but had to stop and do all the usual accident stuff)

Ouch. :unsure:

#60
arkhaminmate

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sorry to hear about your ding dboeren. i had a chance to playtest the deck and also ran a version of mine that existed before i tried to get all fancy pantsy with the eschatologist / apocalyptic / atlantis combo (i do tend to push my decks to the limits of their synergies and end up ruining them - haha). this one i feel was the most stable of the 'contenders'. all i did was update with 2 cards so it might do with some more refining. ill post it here and make the comparisons and comment on the playtesting, so YES, it is relevant to the thread. ill post the deck then follow on after that with the 'analysis'.

STEAK KNIVES

3 x College Prospect (SoK)
2 x Innsmouth Troublemaker (Core)
3 x Alternative Historian (SoK)
3 x Focused Art Student (WitD)
3 x Archaeology Interns (IT)
3 x Naaginn (TbtA)
2 x Lucas Tetlow (SoK)
2 x Cthuloid Spawn (SoM)
1 x Andrew-Chapman (TKatG)
2 x Dr. Laban Shrewsbury (WaB)
3 x Dreamlands Fanatic (ItDoN)
3 x Matthew Alexander (SoK)
3 x Professor Morgan (DD)

2 x A Voros Hal'l Jon (SoK)
2 x Feeding Frenzy (TC)
2 x Magnetic Spike (NN)
3 x Deep One Assault (Core)

2 x Flooded Vault (TiV)
3 x Artifact of the Lost Cities (SoM)
3 x Khopesh of the Abyss (TSS)