Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Research and Destroy

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
90 replies to this topic

#61
arkhaminmate

arkhaminmate

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 505 posts
ok. after 10 games of each deck (both with the familiarity of piloting the style) i got the feeling that Grahams version fired a little bit harder than mine. on the other side of the scales, mine was a bit more resistant to the longer game than Grahams was, and had more answers to the decks weaknesses (ill get to that).

the main differences are:

Focused Art Student / Obsessive Insomniac - a hard call as far as im concerned. although the Insomniac is good for repetative card drawing, it has to exhaust to do so. the big thing i noticed with this slot was the extra INV icons. Grahams deck often took a whole extra turn to complete stories if this card(s) is what was on the table.

The Serpents - when Uroborus goes off, it certainly adds a new level of ping to the deck, but for it to conform to the remove / draw / play mechanic a serpent has to be the Khopesh wielder as opposed to all the other simply 'play free' Characters, so its less likely than these to trigger, and on occasion staggers a bit if it needs to wait for one. of course the Temple combo is icing on the cake, but sometimes unnecessary in the playtesting we did. but like i said, 'when it works it works!!'. i also didnt want to employ the Temple for later reasons, so Innsmouth Troublemaker for the Toughness and Cthuloid Spawn for stalling / triggering effects was the replacement (Cthulhu Characters are a bit poo on a one for one basis).

A Voros / Feeding Frenzy - basically in stead of the Mages Machinations and a couple of Character spots. i love the prophecy in this deck for its ability to search for needed cards / free plays and its easy as pie to pull off once you get used to the precise moments you can safely play it. it even becomes viable to DOA your own College Prospect (both 0 cost) to trigger it (as the Prospect replaces those 2 cards and you get to pick any 2 from your deck also). Feeding Frenzy (along with Cthuloid Spawn), are nice additions to the Khopesh to meet the requirements of opponent removals for A Voros / free play triggers. i can totally understand though why Graham went with his cards and they worked very well, but they dont facilitate the prophecy so didnt suit my deck.

Magnetic Spike - and here is where we get to a major point brought up in playtesting. being that Grahams deck has no Support removal apart from a Loyal DOA (if it appears). against a deck fielding (and drawing) Flux Stabiliser and Snow Graves, and not seeing a DOA in the first 4 turns, the deck basically **** itself (in the game that this happened anyway). we also found a BIG problem with a recurring Ice Shaft / Jamburg deck. with no way of removing either, it was rather simple to just sit with the Ice Shaft and take out Khopesh wielders before the Artifact could be placed. Magnetic Spike makes these (and most other Support problems) far less of an issue (along with Chapman vs destruction Supports). also, against a deck that is taking out a lot of your Characters, having 2 or 3 Supports dumped back on the top of your deck for the next draw can make it really hard to recover. Hence no Temple as well in this version as all my Supports needed to be play and discard.

so yeah. i like both and each has its merits. overall both performed extremely well against the test decks we used (apart from the Support issue that cropped up). when the 'combo' fires it is really quite a sight and difficult to bounce back from (but it can be done). just depends on whether you want to be totally aggressive, or have a bit of fuel in the reserve tank for a bit more resilience. they are certainly strong decks, but in no way infallible.

Lastly, its interesting how similar the decks are, but one small change creates such differences. Cafeteria Lady for example is a great card for Grahams deck and does its job tying down Terror targets (if there are any of course), whereas with Feeding Frenzy and Cthuloid Spawn, my deck wants any left overs to commit to stories.
  • orso likes this

#62
dboeren

dboeren

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 2834 posts

it was rather simple to just sit with the Ice Shaft and take out Khopesh wielders before the Artifact could be placed.


Maybe I'm misreading something here, but how do you know who the wielder is before it is placed? If you Ice Shaft one character, cannot he just play it on another? Or did you mean that you wait for Khopesh to be placed, then Ice Shaft before they can use it?

#63
Zephyr

Zephyr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts
Insomniac can discard resources to ready itself, when you want to win T1, T2, T3 top it's a really powerful option if all your guys are next to free or free, discaring resources can also populate discard pile with serpents for uroborus.
My biggest problem with Insomniac is loyal MU 2 cost, but i guess there is enough MU and you can always resource him if you dont get enough.
And is this deck that really that fast? I dont have time/skills/opponents etc to test it.
If it wins T3 recurring Ice shaft + jamburg is really not a problem... both cost 3, so youll play it like once... removing one of the free characters... whatever really...

Also, could some mod clean up this thread and move all the whining on Graham Hills attitude somewhere else. I agree he could be less elitarist, but the deck itself looks worth discussing and this thread looks like a complete mess now,

I'd like to know the math behind it. (any tutoruials on those cobmo table anaylzis? its the 2nd time i hear about it, sounds interesting but I found only : http://mathworld.wol...arnaughMap.html and cant really see how it helps analyse combo probabilities; any description of the model and how is opponent disturbing combo play accounted for in analyzis? or even basic in the void probability calculation?)
Theorucrafting has its limits, but as far as combo deck evaluation goes combo probabilities are kinda key, if you dont get cards for combo deck requires, and opponents gets his engine going, no skill is going to help you.
  • Unnamable likes this

#64
mzi

mzi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30 posts
Recurring Ice Shaft is not enough against this deck when played correctly because the amount of free drop is too high. While you drain all your domains to kill three characters, it can easily drop three other characters and keep one domain undrained.

#65
Carioz

Carioz

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

A Voros / Feeding Frenzy - basically in stead of the Mages Machinations and a couple of Character spots. i love the prophecy in this deck for its ability to search for needed cards / free plays and its easy as pie to pull off once you get used to the precise moments you can safely play it. it even becomes viable to DOA your own College Prospect (both 0 cost) to trigger it (as the Prospect replaces those 2 cards and you get to pick any 2 from your deck also).


If I am not making a rules mistake A Voros and Deep One Assault on your own College Prospect will not only not trigger A Voros, but also net you -1 draw.
Since College Prospect ability is a forced response it must resolve before A Voros response triggers. What would happen is:

You play A Voros paying 1.
You Deep One Assault your own College Prospect.
Now what the game rules dictate is:


The order of precedence of when an effect takes place, assuming all conditions are met simultaneously, is as follows:
1. Disrupt effects
2. Passive effects
3. Forced Response effects
4. Response effects

So the game triggers College Prospect forced, making you draw A Voros and another card.
Now you cannot trigger A Voros response since it is not on the top of your deck any longer.

  • arkhaminmate likes this

#66
arkhaminmate

arkhaminmate

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 505 posts
haha. too true Carioz !!! id never actually done it (or needed to). my bad for theory crafting. thanks for pointing this out. its always good to have the rules lawyers on hand to curb my fantasies.

and orso. the recurring jamburg can be used to specifically target Khopesh wielders and Graham has no answer to this if his deck doesnt immediately do what its supposed to, and this is the problem i found with it. when it goes off all is dandy. if it has a bad draw or encounters problems like those mentioned, it may not have the strength of icons to be competative in the stories (where Feeding Frenzy / Cthuloid Spawn help out). but you're definately right that a jamburg / shaft loop wont cut it alone.

you really cant say 'when played correctly', because often the deck plays you. and i was running this deck myself at one stage, so it cant be said that i dont know how to use it correctly either. im just pointing out what happened in playtesting. yes. it happened. please dont take this post as any critique on the deck. its pretty darn good. im just relaying to others the results of my experiences playing them and how it 'might' fail / be beaten (sometimes).

and that is what i meant dboeren. the Ice Shaft can just sit there with no threat of removal and as soon as the Khopesh is placed and before the Artifact of the Lost Cities is, you take out that Character, losing the whole ability to draw cards and use 'leaves play' abilities.

this isnt a problem Zephyr if it does perform as fast as it can, but this is not gospel that it can and will always. a small crack letting this combo in can seriously effect the chances of winning. and if you cant find any help with the mathematical aspect, dont worry too much. it didnt take a degree or all the analysis for me to realise how neat the remove / draw / play mechanic was ! haha.

#67
Zephyr

Zephyr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts
Imagine you have a combo deck that has 80% chance of firing and winnning by T3 and 20% chance of failing and losing miserably.

Now you could add some cards that make this 20% case not so bad, but doing so will probably decrease your chance of being really strong. Say now you get deck that 60% is a killer, 35% is so-so , and 5% miserable.

Now the question is, what are your opponents playing and is so-so good enough. If their playing 80% awsome, 20% miserable your so-so might as well be miserable, as it will get crushed most of the time anyway.

So assuming 50-50 win chance of decks on equal "strength" given game, and 100% chance of winning with better distribution, you get.
0.8*(0.6*0.5+0.4) + 0.2*0.05*0.5 = 56.5% winrate against the less extreme deck, so in theory the deck that can fail is actually better
(for 75 awsome, 20% so-so and 5% bad it's still 50.5% in favour of 80% awsome, 20% bad)

It's just playing with numbers and personal preference towards risk. Numbers are kinda key if you want to maximise your chance of winning, although even with your chances maxed you can still lose.

This is basic theorycrafting, game is much more complex, but i just wanted to ilustrate having deck with bad scenario reduced might actually be a bad idea depending on other players decks.

edit:
less theoryfrafty:
how does this deck play when opponent can get rid of kopesh before it fires?
(open 2 shoulb domain, opponents Tetlow in play, open 2 Yog domain threatening Pushed into the Beyond)
does it relay on kopesh that heavily, or can it resource kopesh and just play different path?
or maybe getting rid of kopesh is expensive enough against this deck to just play it anyway and just take the hit
or leaving 2 domain open is just too big for opponent and he cant afford leave it open
(khopesh is viable since T1 in this deck)

(snow graves interact badly with DOA so it doesnt seem like particularly important problem, especialy as this deck doesnt seem to need its discard that much)
Also uroborus doesnt relay on Kopesh, both naagin and serpent cultist are there seemingly just to trigger uroborus; with temple you can sacrifice any of them for opponents sac, you get uroborus, also just commiting them to stories should often be enough, as with T icon they'll not die, and killing them means you get uroborus (possibly followed by alexander), no need for kopesh

i really like how those decks cards interact, artifat i like the least as its kinda kopesh bound, but artifact on vault is also pretty sweat with all those enter play effects and kopesh out of nowwhere possible, or vault into vault if desperate for draw, but it doesn't sound good)

#68
arkhaminmate

arkhaminmate

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 505 posts
i really liked this article that shows exactly how the deck can have a bad day and not be a T3 behemoth. thanks Dan for writing it.

Round 2: I played against Jeffrey Seacrest (sp?), whom was from Team Epic Loot - Ohio Branch (Pennsylvania branch?). I had seen the matching t-shirts and talked to him and Jim Black, who were both really cool guys and staying at the fabulous, star studded Days Inn like me. So we chatted a bit more throughout the weekend. Jeff was a really great opponent, and was high off beating Tom on TV in the first round. Unfortunately, the high was so strong that he couldn't focus and I ended up beating Jeff in our match-up. I'm not really sure how that happened either. I recall playing against the Research and Destroy deck later that day and the thing that killed me was the card disadvantage I had, R&D players would always have hands full of cards. Against Jeffrey that wasn't the case, as I don't remember his engine getting started. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Round 4: Jim Black. Jim had checked into the hotel while I was sitting in the common area. "Reservation under Black" he said. I recognized him, but I was rooted to my seat by fear and a belligerent drunk friend who kept trying to learn Invasion. His reputation preceded him, I have his damn face in my deck as the restricted card choice because he can jump into play and kill things! The perfect formula! Now I have to play him. He was playing the R&D deck too, and it was a very different game than against Jeffrey as he was able to get his card draw rocking and turn off combat struggles with the cursed Alternative Historian (SoK). I tried and tried, but all was lost. I ended up dragging out the game, and in the end he said "You made me work for it", but the turning point happened somewhat early and I couldn't right the good ship HappyDD after his first Khopesh slaughter. I think he ended up playing the damn thing 4 times, twice out of hand and twice out of the discard pile. The fire in his eyes was terrifying as he cut down my units left and right. The pointless loss of life... I will say that I was idiotically happy about playing the Descendant of Eibon in this game and pointed it out to people. Jim was tolerant of my star struck stupidity, he must have this happen to him a lot but he just chuckled.



and thanks for the extra analysis Zephyr. and it really just comes down to the day, as it always does. does one of those 'safe' cards win you a match that gets you to the finals / in the finals, where the extreme deck fails and is booted ? like you said, i suppose its personal preference and the situation that you find yourself in. i myself get tickled pink when A Voros is used to search and play for free, and am happy to possibly sacrifice some efficiency to see it happen.

i do find numbers to be dangerous though. 80% chance of firing does not always equate to a T3 win, so you'd then need to factor in the percentage of this happening into the 20% fail miserably, as the 80% / beyond T3 without the 'safe' cards can still = fail miserably.

and then you might say that the 80% awesome meets the 35% so-so, and the so-so aspect is what gets you through those first 3 rounds (which is exactly why you made those changes). the tables then turn as what made the 80% so awesome might now be making it drift every turn towards the 20% miserable while the 35% so-so still has the capability to kick into the 60% awesome.

ahhhh. numbers.

i understand that its sometimes hard to look at a deck and try to imagine how the cards interact, but the 'trick' of this deck is getting the 'draw cards' effect to happen immediately after removing Characters from play, as only then will the 'enters play' effects trigger upon drawing them. so Artifact on the Khopesh is the driving combo for this (or Feeding Frenzy / Cthuloid Spawn / A Voros etc). otherwise its just a 'draw card' effect which im sure could be done a lot more efficently in some other way.

Snow Graves on its own is certainly not a threat (dont forget it does trap the Khopesh from reshuffling though and kills the Temple / Uroborus loop - giving the deck a rather narrow window to win within). the problem was when it encountered Snow Graves AND Flux Stabiliser. there are only 3 x DOA in the deck (if you see them) and now you've got 6 x cards that can stop your pony from performing. a single Magnetic Spike (if you see it) can open a window to let your deck do what it does and can mean no Characters drawn next turn by the opponent (just 2 Supports that have now failed to do what they were supposed to).

as stated though, both are great decks to me, and i actually think a meeting point between the 2 would make the best deck - lets say a 70 / 20 / 10 % mix - haha.

#69
Zephyr

Zephyr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts
Tempe /uroborus im pretty sure is not the combo you want to play in this deck, uroborus needs to get back from insane it takes a turn, far too slow; not that it cant be used, but more like it doesn't matter

magnetic spike could be big though, 2 cards worth of draw and delaying you one turn, still you need to leave 2 domain open, if deck can ignore kopesh and just use all other things in this case, capitalising on your unused domain, it can still be pretty tough to deal with

but you can play kopes, wound one guy, then play artifact the wound another and trigger artifact; recurring kopesh also doesnt sound that big; its definitely nice, but getting it under snow grave should not hurt that much

(and if opponent doesnt know the opposing deck it all gets more complex, as its much harder to make "right" decisions)

Flux stabilizer can be quite a problem as you need DoA in this case. Prepared Alienist might also be a bit of a problem, Kopesh can deal with him but it's still toughness +1 you need to target.

About numbers, their completely random. I just wanted to back my thesis with some numbers. Awsome performence is not counted as win, awsome means it beats all lesser and has 50:50 agains other awsome.

#70
kamacausey

kamacausey

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 473 posts
Ok, I put research and destroy together last night and let me just say it is brutal! I knew it would be good but it performed much better than I had anticipated. I played it against a syndicate/yog skill reduction deck using ice shaft and marcus jamburg among other things and it just rolled it! It wasn't even close! Ice shaft is waaaay too slow against this deck! To be able to beat research and destroy your going to have to slow it down with cards like flux stabilizer, prepared alienist, and snow graves like already mentioned. Negotium came to mind as well but you can't have it and jamburg in the same deck. I'm curious to know what people have come up with since worlds to combat this monstrosity? Any body have a deck they would like to share that can consistently beat research and destroy? If not I predict there will be a lot of R&D at Gencon this year.

#71
kamacausey

kamacausey

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 473 posts
Also, I had a few questions while playing R&D that came up last night. Someone who is better versed in the rules could you please help me out here? 1) When Khopesh of the Abyss (TSS) is attached to Naaginn (TbtA) and they both enter the discard pile can you choose which enters the discard pile first to make it to where naaginn enters first then khopesh so naaginn will then come right back into play?

#72
Zephyr

Zephyr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts
a) you chose the order your cards leave play

Whenever character or support cards enter or leave play at the same time, the controlling player chooses the order in which they enter or leave play


b) response window is responce window for Action of firing kopesh, after both cards exit play during its resolution, so nagin can respond no matter the order

#73
kamacausey

kamacausey

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 473 posts
Thanks for the reply. I have another question: When a support card leaves play like khopesh because the character that has it on dies does that mean khopesh is destroyed or is it just leaving play? How does that work exactly?

#74
konx

konx

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 114 posts

To be able to beat research and destroy your going to have to slow it down with cards like flux stabilizer, prepared alienist, and snow graves like already mentioned. Negotium came to mind as well but you can't have it and jamburg in the same deck.


I just want to point out that while that seems a viable (and maybe the most straightforward) option, it is not nearly enough. I have seen the deck played by Graham and it just crushed a board with all the three cards present. The way I see it, one of those cards is not enough to slow it down consistently, the three together _might_ do something, but while you are filling the board (and emptying your hand) with those, R&D is just playing the chars and committing them to stories.

The deck has so many angles and playlines that (as I said earlier in this topic) one single card or strategy is not enough to beat it.

As far as I am concerned, first we have to wait for the new FAQ to come out and see how they change the meta.

About R&D: I think one viable strategy might be one involving unending festivities/exhaustion. If you can lock the board state soon, you might be able to stop the advantage gained with the free chars entering into play.

My 2 cents

Konx

#75
kamacausey

kamacausey

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 473 posts

I just want to point out that while that seems a viable (and maybe the most straightforward) option, it is not nearly enough. I have seen the deck played by Graham and it just crushed a board with all the three cards present. The way I see it, one of those cards is not enough to slow it down consistently, the three together _might_ do something, but while you are filling the board (and emptying your hand) with those, R&D is just playing the chars and committing them to stories.

The deck has so many angles and playlines that (as I said earlier in this topic) one single card or strategy is not enough to beat it.

As far as I am concerned, first we have to wait for the new FAQ to come out and see how they change the meta.

About R&D: I think one viable strategy might be one involving unending festivities/exhaustion. If you can lock the board state soon, you might be able to stop the advantage gained with the free chars entering into play.

My 2 cents

Konx

How did the deck win with all three in play? The deck only has 3 copies of deep one assault to answer those cards with so how was he just curb stomping them? I am not arguing that he did (the deck is super brutal) but how was he able to answer both a prepared alienist and a flux stabilizer at the same time?

#76
Zephyr

Zephyr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 787 posts
By ignoring them and just winning? Havent tested the deck but this seems to be the most straightforward answer. If your opponent used up domains/cards for 2 such cards that are a hindrance, but do nothing else, you can just use this advantage instead of new characters advantage. And negotum might actually help you if you get fanatics up and manage to clear opponets 3+ with kopesh. (and it also has Morgan and Uroborus, so Negotum can backfire quire heavily if you dont negate enter play effects at the same time)

Have i guessed it right?

Also alienist stops working if he tries to defend a story or attack. Toughness +1 certainly helps, but might still be not enough.

Snow Graves hurt uroborus in late, a bit slowdown on kopesh recursion, but generally dont seem like that much of a problem. (but at least they dont cost a domain to play)

Stabilizer seems the most problematic, But there is a load of draw, 3x DAO and Telclow so its not that easy. And its 1 card 1 domain that is devoted to protection only, not giving anything other than that. (seems much more irritating than other "counters", but for a worst possible counter card its not that brutal IMO)

#77
arkhaminmate

arkhaminmate

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 505 posts
Jade Salesman.
  • Zephyr likes this

#78
HomerJ

HomerJ

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 349 posts
Ok, first, that list is amazing! I'm in shock how fast it fires. However . . . . questions . . . .

1) Dr. Laban Shrewsbury? As much draw as there is, he seems like an auto include (although I'm not sure where to fit him in).
2) Elijah Conrad. This guys LOVES Flooded Vault and Temple of Rlyeh. Does he find a slot?
3) Timing question (and yes, I'm trying to figure it out based on the FAQ)
I have a College Prospect with a Khopesh and a Artifact of the Lost City attached. He commits seppeku. What's the correct sequence of timing?
College Prospect: Forced Response-Draw 2 cards.
Khopesh: Static effect to shuffle.
Artifact: Response-Draw 3 cards

So if I've got my lawyer-hat on, it goes:
  • Prospect dies. All three cards enter the discard pile at the same time.
  • Passive Abilities (Khopesh is shuffled in)
  • Forced Responses (Draw 2 from College Prospect)
  • Responses (Draw 3 drom Artifact)

Right?

#79
konx

konx

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 114 posts

By ignoring them and just winning?


Basically, this.

When I said "while you are filling the board (and emptying your hand) with those, R&D is just playing the chars and committing them to stories." I meant exactly what Zephyr says.

The deck does not rely on the draw-put into play for free to win. It is obviously the strategy behind the "combo" approach, but a big majority of the characters can be played off the domains just like a regular deck; with the advantage that the draw still works, so your hand is going to be full most of the times.

Now, consider a "normal" deck packing alienist, graves e stabilizer. Alienist you can answer by kopesh/temple, so it's the easiest piece to get rid of, if you want. The other two cards, once played, don't do _anything_ on the board state. So, assume you start, 9 cards in total. 4 go into domains (5 cards left), let's say that 2 are stabilizer and graves, and you play them (3 cards left). Now you have 3 cards in hand, and to be sure you put pressure they MUST be cheap characters that can be played fast. In the best case scenario for you, you can play them from the 2 domains left (one was used for the flux). 1 card in hand. Awesome start, apparently. Now, R&D just don't care about flux/graves and play 2/3 chars on turn 1 and 2, and start drawing. A single activation of kopesh (that you can search, besides the drawing) is enough to gain advantage on the board.

This is all theory, of course. The deck was tuned and tested in a very long period against a big number of decks so if in your testing you seem to consistently lose to a single card try to change the way you play it; it is a bit difficult to explain, but a slight change in play style has a huge influence on how the deck plays.

About modification on the list: before you make any change (except the ones suggested in the OP), play a consistent number of games, because again, all the quantities where thoroughly evaluated and tried before the tournament.

bye

Konx

#80
arkhaminmate

arkhaminmate

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 505 posts
To get back to the discussion of possible counters to the deck.......

I'm of the opinion that Flux Stabiliser is as good as any card to give R&D some serious trouble. 3 x Flux vs 3 x DOA seems like fair odds to me, and if you're the lucky one that gets it while the other has theirs sitting on the bottom of the deck then one will find themselves with 3 x 4 Cost Uroborus now being a late game card, 3 x Loyal 3 Cost Matthew Alexanders being relatively unplayable, 3 x 5 Cost Professor Morgans being next to unplayable, 3 x 3 Cost Dreamlands Fanatics being an inferior card for the Cost and 3 x 2 Cost Naaginn's being just as inefficient price wise. 15 cards out of 50 being possibly made pretty useless by a 1 Cost card in the first turn or 2, when the opponent only has 6 x 1 Cost Characters and probably won't be able to make any sort of Board advantage from it certainly seems like an efficient counter, and makes R&D really just a luck based deck when faced with it, especially when a Flux deck will likely have an equal or superior draw capability and a lot more speed due to Characters that can actually be played and aren't useless to the situation like Cafeteria Lady.

There was also some banter in the OP about the Khopesh / Artifact play not being statistically profitable without the 'enters play' Characters, something about sinkholes or negative returns or whatever, so taking this into account if you get a Flux or 2 in play before the appearance of a DOA then there's another 8 cards that are sub-optimal in the deck, bringing the total to 23 cards that are directly effected by a little 1 Cost Support and are depending solely on 3 other cards in the deck to remove it.