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New to CoC LCG, and old Magic player, lots of rules questions!

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#41
Danigral

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Well at least I know when I'm asking questions, and its causing lots of discussion, I am indeed asking good questions heh.

So while we're all trying to figure this out, I have another fun one for ya, though this may just be me overthinking it.

Ipiutak-

"After a character you control was chosen as the only target of a triggered effect, exhaust this to copy that effect choosing another character as the target of that effect"

So....if I cast...

Sacrificial Offerings-

ACTION: (which makes this a trigger correct?) Choose and Wound a character an opponent controls. THEN (So this has to occur) then that character' controller may choose and wound a character.


So can Ipiutak target Sac Offerings? If so, does it copy 1 effect, both effects?
A character I control is being targeted, and it is the only chosen target of mine and of that portion of the effect, but the total event targets 2 characters, so this makes Sac Offerings not a viable target?

This is either dirt simple or insanely fun and complicated to think about how it resolves. I hope it works the fun way, as it would make a deck I'm working on much more fun

Cheers!

I don't think Ipiutak can copy it. While separated with "Then" it is still considered 1 effect, and that 1 effect targets 2 characters, one of yours and one of his, so there is not only one target.

#42
Danigral

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Ok so "come into play" for Hermetic Seal Countering purposes, means it has to be physically placed on the table as it were, so Supports, Characters etc, but not Events, Rituals, etc, yes?

That's right.

As for the stories resolving, I am again confused here, and reading different things.

All stories resolve in the same framework. The active player chooses which story he wishes to resolve first. However I read that no resolutions finalize until ALL of them have. Is this not correct?
Granted it's SUPER confusing to try and keep track of that, and it seems most players don't do this for sake of ease running the game, but this would prevent "jumping character" cards other than Military Bike (as it's wording is very specific) from being at multiple stories.

A silly example I don't think anyone would do would but, I have Jiang Shi at the left story. I wish to resolve the right story first.
I misread a card and I am going to suffer losses there I don't wish too. I now move Jiang Shi to that story for backup.

Now when I go to resolve the left story, I no longer have a character there (but did) so it cannot resolve.

So why does it work 1 way and not the other, or are all stories considered staggered separate resolutions and I mis-read something somewhere?

From the FAQ, pg. 15:
(3.5) Story Resolution
Once stories start resolving, the resolution of all stories is considered a single game effect, and all responses to anything that occurs during story resolution will be played in the same window of opportunity. Disrupts will still interrupt story resolution and take place immediately, as they precede the occurrence being disrupted.

So we have several things clear from this:
1) story resolution is treated as a single game effect (so actions and responses cannot be played)
2) stories still resolve in the order chosen by the active player, so there is a definite order to story resolution
3) disrupts and forced responses still can be triggered, interrupting story resolution

We also see from the core rules that Uncommitting characters from stories is a separate framework action. So what happens is characters commit, all stories resolve fully, there is a window for responses, then another for actions, and then the final framework action window uncommits all characters at stories.

Again, there is no "memory" of stories that resolved previously. For example, if Jiang Shi was at story 1 and that resolved, then his ability later disrupted a struggle at story 2, he would jump to story two, but you wouldn't go "back in time" to story one and consider him as not participating because that has already resolved. You can consider each story resolution as sort of mini-framework actions within the larger framework action of story resolution. Everything works intuitively, as long as you remember that responses happen at the end after everything resolves.

#43
Yipe

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Lookout stops Nodens and Many-Angled Thing etc, confirmed by Damon. Responses after story resolution and game effects go to active player, Responses after actions go to player who didn't initiate action (as per core rulebook). Looking for the reply now.


This is how we've been playing it all along (without really thinking about it too much, honestly), so I'm glad to have an official confirmation. The deciding factor for me was the inclusion of "framework game event" in one description and not the other.

Also, I sent Damon a question regarding The Guzheng. I think my interpretation is correct (that it continually checks and reduces, with the active player deciding order of simultaneous/constant effects), but we'll see what he says.

EDIT: Answer From Damon

Q: Does the Guzheng continually check, and therefore constantly reduce, the attached character's skill to zero?

My Example: A character has The Guzheng attached to it and that character's controller also has Altar of the Blessed in play. What is the character's skill? What happens when said character receives a skill bonus through a triggered effect, such as Tattoo Artist?

A: The Guzheng itself doesn't do any checks, the game checks for skill anytime there is a skill count or a new modifier of some sort is added to the mix. Anytime a new modifier is applied or a skill check needs to be made you apply all active modifiers simultaneously. +1 skill and reduce to skill 0, when figured together ends up with zero. Reduce to zero is an absolute. So the final calculation will also be zero.
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#44
BeldVanGuard

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Ok so going over everything so far

I know how Hermetic Seal works

I understand the story resolution phase better now

I understand what "Jump chars" can and cannot do

We know for a fact Guzheng is absolutely 0 skill

I understand how Expert Testimony works now (but I'm still gonna read it twice every time I play it I'm sure)

Lookout must use his ability the MOMENT something comes into play or the response window is closed

Lookout's text box blanking.......I still feel like I'm getting 2 answers, this can or cannot stop enter play effects (Minor Forced Responses, I know it doesn't stop those due to the timing window order)

Are we all in agreement Ipiutak cannot target Sacrificial Offerings due to the 2 targets, even though only 1 of them is targeting your char? If you don't agree, how would this resolve?

Thank you everyone for their help and input, I assure you I'm taking extensive notes so the players I ref here won't have any of the problems I am heh

Now if Hastur can just get some damn cost effective characters and better ways to bypass Terror Defense heh

#45
HilariousPete

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Are we all in agreement Ipiutak cannot target Sacrificial Offerings due to the 2 targets, even though only 1 of them is targeting your char?


I also asked that. Here's Damon's response:

Q: Sac. Offerings + Ipiutak: If my opponent used Sac. Off. on me, I may not use Ipituak to copy just the last sub-effect on Sacrificial Offerings, since only the whole effect is a triggered effect but not the sub-effect after "then". And the whole effect targets 2 chars in total. Yes?

A: Yes.
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#46
Danigral

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Lookout must use his ability the MOMENT something comes into play or the response window is closed

Lookout's text box blanking.......I still feel like I'm getting 2 answers, this can or cannot stop enter play effects (Minor Forced Responses, I know it doesn't stop those due to the timing window order)

I believe that others confirmed above regarding the timing of responses. When a player takes an action, his opponent has the first response to that action; when a framework action happens, the active player gets first response.

Lookout's ability is a decent toolbox effect, but I think that he'll most likely end up getting cut. While the blanking part is flashy, we see that it doesn't really hit a lot. It can be useful to stop Black Dogs or Master of the Myths, but Lookout has to be ready for that, so he serves more as a deterrent. He can blank cards that might be useful in operations phase, such as cards that might reduce the cost of other cards (like Anthropology Advisor), or do other things like Corrupted Midwife. Most notably it can stop characters with Responses that trigger from entering play. Here is a list of those cards:
Ammunitions Expert (AH) x1
Azathoth (SoA) x1
Bearer of the Yellow Sign (Core) x1
Board of Directors (IotF) x1
Constricting Elder Thing (IotF) x1
Dark Druid (AH) x1
Elder Thing (SoM) x1
Extortionist (Core) x1
Ferocious Dark Young (WitD) x1
Focused Art Student (WitD) x1
Granny Orne (KD) x1
Grasping Chthonian (IotF) x1
Hard Case (Core) x1
Harvesting Mi-Go (TTB) x1
High Wizard of the Order (TOotST) x1
Hungry Dark Young (Core) x1
Initiate of Huang Hun (CotJE) x1
James "Cookie" Fredericks (SoK) x1
James Logan (WitD) x1
Lodge Housekeeper (TOotST) x1
Lucas Corn (WaB) x1
Many-angled Thing (TGS) x1
Museum Curator (TWB) x1
Nodens (KD) x1
Obscene Byakhee (SoM) x1
Pious Carabiniere (TiV) x1
Protector of Secrets (IotF) x1
Recruiter for the Lodge (TOotST) x1
Small Time Magician (TTB) x1
The Red-Gloved Man (WitD) x1
Thief for Hire (IotF) x1
Twisted Choreographer (PT) x1
Unscrupulous Acquisitionist (TGS) x1
Young Initiate (TOotST) x1
Lost City of Pnakotus (TKatG) x1

A lot of these don't really see play, but a number of them are very popular. However, it's worth noting that the exhaust part of his ability should not be overlooked. There are probably over a hundred cards with abilities that require them to exhaust as a part of the cost to trigger the effect. This slows down your opponent's ability to use that for a whole turn. Of course, again it requires Lookout to be ready...perhaps Danny O'Bannion's Crony (SoM) can help with that?

#47
Wilbur

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That's not how Black Dog works.



#48
Wilbur

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Black Dog could be text-blanked (he'd lose willpower), but you can't keep him off of stories.

As it turns out, Black Dog is quite good.

#49
dboeren

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He loses Willpower and also Fast, but Wilbur is correct that he will still be at the story. Sometimes him losing Willpower is really nice, but not so much against a mono-Syndicate deck which won't typically have Terror. Worth more in a mixed faction deck with a Mythos partner. Losing Fast is worth something, but it's not necessarily awesome.

#50
Danigral

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That's not how Black Dog works.

Yeah, I said "helpful to stop," but that doesn't mean "completely shut down." I didn't mean to imply that. Black Dog and MotM would lose keywords, which really removes a lot of their resilience. Also, it's worth noting that since they enter play via their triggered effect which also sets a time for them to return to hand, even if the text box is blanked it will still return to hand.

#51
Wilbur

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Yeah, I said "helpful to stop," but that doesn't mean "completely shut down." I didn't mean to imply that. Black Dog and MotM would lose keywords, which really removes a lot of their resilience. Also, it's worth noting that since they enter play via their triggered effect which also sets a time for them to return to hand, even if the text box is blanked it will still return to hand.

Well, Lookout completely shuts down MoM. He can't help once he's exhausted, textbox be damned. Lookout doesn't do anything to Black Dog unless you have Terror. In which case, I doubt he's coming in. For the record, I think some of you are overvaluing Lookout, too: cost 3 and can't attack if you want him to protect against MoM (but not Black Dog).

Also, undying shame on FFG for contributing to the extinction of the subjunctive mood on Lookout.


#52
BeldVanGuard

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Ok so Lookout is pretty awesome (I'm not using him in a standard type deck, so this makes me happy)

Also, as for Ipuitak and Sac Offerings, does that ruling from Damon apply if I'm the caster of it, not the opponent?
Im actually looking to use it to cause my own character's wounds (don't ask, I have a stupid idea, why I'm so concerned if this works or not)

#53
arkhaminmate

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I've always liked Lookout. With INV and ARCANE it's quite possible to sneak 3 success tokens at an undefended story and then be readied during the opponents phase to exhaust the most powerful Character they play, which can sometimes result in another crack at an undefended story (depends on your deck of course).

I doubt that he'll see a huge amount of play once Denizens comes out though.

#54
Wilbur

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I've always liked Lookout.

But then, you've always detested Nodens...
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#55
arkhaminmate

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This is very true. It has a banana sticker on it.
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#56
Wilbur

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Cause of Death: Laughter.

#57
Wilbur

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Should we start an 'all banana sticker' thread?

#58
BeldVanGuard

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I must be missing some info on the banana joke =p

#59
Wilbur

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Arkham is the funniest dude on here. Hates bananas. I don't know what it is (actually, I do), but good luck trying to slip a Marcus Jamburg-shaped fruit past him.


Or me, sucka.

#60
arkhaminmate

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It's just an old reference to 'meta monkeys' and people who build their decks using a chimpanzee and a card pool with all the over powered cards having banana stickers on them. I used to give them a LOT of grief for their 'lack of deck building imagination', but I'm past my youthful rage against the machine days. Monkeys will be monkeys !! Haha.