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What Scoundrel errata do you think would be the most appropriate?

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#1
Letux

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So if they did issue an errata what do you think would be the best "fix" if any to make the current yellow swarm still viable but not NPE?


No fix? Sith got to be kings for a year, it's our turn?

Make Dash or Freeholders 'one per deck'?

Make Freeholders non elite?

Limit Holding all the Cards to one per turn?

Make Holding all the Cards Limited?

Give Freeholders a max to the discount (like always costs at least 2 or something)

Make the Freeholder objective a forced reaction?

Make Dash's objective Rebel or Jedi affiliation only? (a little extreme)

Some other fix or a combination of the above?

Just wondering what other peoples opinions are.

#2
Asukarulez

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seems pretty simple to me, make a bunch of pods limit 1 per deck (or just make them all limit 1 per deck...)

#3
SmokeyJ

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I'm thinking making Holding All the Cards limit once per turn would probably be enough to stem the absurdity without over-nerfing the sets. They'd still be plenty playable, but the combo wouldn't be completely ridiculous. I'm on the fence on whether or not the Trust Me ruling needs to be changed, but I'm leaning towards it needing to be changed to needing to have two damage capacity left to trigger.
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#4
fliptheforce

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Freeloaders are the problem, HatC is the enabler. Most times, you would ban/fix the enabler to fix the problem.

However, if you mess with HatC, you mess up Dash's entire set, which doesn't seem good for the game. I think, due to objective sets, if anything needs to be fixed, it needs to be the problem.

#5
Toggle

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I think the real problem is light side acceleration and aggression in general. Dark Side requires a minimum of 4 LS turns (turn 7) while holding the Force to win with 3 objectives destroyed. Light Side gets to attack first and can win on turn 2 by destroying three objectives. The speed of the game has shifted such that skill and Edge battles (while still important) are becoming less so. I do not enjoy games that are decided more by a deck "going off" or not rather than decision-making or strategy.

I've seen Rebel decks go off in a way where there is nothing that a DS player could do to get the dial above 4 or 5, so it's not a new problem - just more consistent and more options. Attack Pattern Delta / Defense of Yavin 4, etc create opportunities to play upwards of 15-20 resources worth of cards in two LS turns. While this is less dominant and consistent than the current decks, it can still create unwinnable scenarios for the dark side. As the card pool matures, more aggressive interactions will develop.

Holding all the Cards allows all combos to become more consistent by trading a free Event card for drawing two, and Freeholders are just an obvious payoff based on hand size. There will likely be more aggressive early resource / blast advantage issues going forward, and how FFG and the community responds to the current environment will be very interesting. Anything with cost reduction and black blast is going to speed up the game and have the potential for abuse. In a game that is intended to never cycle the card pool, it's hard to put the cat back in the bag. On top of that, the more board wipes get added to the game, the easier it is for combo decks or acceleration to "go off" on subsequent turns.

More specifically, I think paying less than 3 for a Freeholder and especially dropping multiple Freeholders early is not healthy for the game. I also believe that Dash's objective set is fine with the exception of the objective itself. In my opinion, a smaller hand size is too easy to accomplish for gaining a black blast to every unit. Compare this with Anoat which requires a Smuggler unit to attack alone, and is still regarded as extremely powerful.

I think the lightest touch would be to limit The False Report to one per deck and/or give the Freeholders a minimum cost. In practice though, I don't think FFG would really want to errata cards such that the printed text is not valid. I find it more likely an outright ban and reprint in future product would be the easiest to implement.
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#6
TGO

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Make freeholders limited or make the objective a limit one

#7
Krey

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Give Freeholders the following:

When you pay 3 or less resources to play this unit it comes into play focused.

#8
Toots

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holding all the cards once per turn would be my suggestion. I think they do need to realise the scope of the game as in dark side can't win in one turn so don't make it possible for light side to unless you balance it out.

Cards like Moldy Crow that have crazy objective damage, which is same as dash just have too much oomph. if you boost it with objectives fine. Dash could have been balanced if it was edge enabled kind of, moldy crow won't be that bad unless edge(1) from the objectives in play. Dash with protector's and holding all the cards you can't do much except tactics and if you have tactics you better win edge.

#9
JustinMcBride

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I am on the fence about changing any of the cards. Sure they are very powerful, however I would much rather see the other affiliations receive more powerful cards. IMHO, if you are to change anything, I would like to see the Freeholders come into play for a minimum of 1 and Holding All the Cards limit 1 per turn. That would be enough to curb the power of the sets while keeping them playable but not over the top.

#10
Toqtamish

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Wait for the cycle to finish and see all the other cards that were all playtested together as a set.
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#11
chunkygorillas

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I do think holding all the cards should be limited to once per turn and I agree with Justin, freeholders shouldn't be able to come in for free. I don;t want to see too many changes though since I feel like nerfing the dash/freeholder deck would probably just make sleuths come back haha. What needs to happening (and what is happening) is every factions needs to be getting these crazy good sets, what judging from the spoilers looks like is happening.

#12
America

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Let's wait and see how the next few sets pan out.

It seems like it was just yesterday everybody was going bonkers over a stale meta.
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#13
sellout23

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We need to wait until cycle end. The set after next will push back pretty hard against this. Targeted strike troopers, watchful eyes(possible false report clone), cost reduction dark troopers to name a few.

#14
PBrennan

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Yep, and we know how prone FFG are to dishing out errata ... as we saw with all those Sith control deck errata!

#15
chiller087

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The Errata list in LotR is rather extensive.

Thankfully this game isn't LotR. I keep cringing when they release a new FAQ for Star Wars, hoping that nothing new has been given errata. I can put up with it in LotR thanks to the non-competitive nature in that game, but in Star Wars it'd be completely unacceptable!
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#16
yodaman

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-IMO I'd like them to avoid errata, leave all the cards as is, and just give the DS a true way to cancel LS events (i.e. a DS version of Trust Me, C-3PO or Counterstroke). To me that would help. Perhaps that's coming and I just haven't seen it in the spoiled cards.

#17
PBrennan

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Yeah, I was talking about SW only. It was my frustration with LotR's templating that led me to get involved with SW in the first place. Anyway, there's been no surprises to date, and this is the game FFG wanted to present. I'd say go along for the ride, enjoy the journey, and see where it takes us :-)

#18
KennedyHawk

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Give Freeholders a max to the discount (like always costs at least 2 or something)


My vote would be for this. It would limit the ridiculousness. I'd be fine with even a minimum of 1, meaning you can get off a ridiculous combo to play 3-4 and still play other cards. Things like Vader's Command could then really shut it down instead of just stalling it.

This may be addressed by the end of the cycle with some DS cards that slow down your opponents. I don't necessarily like this route because it's just shifting the problem to the other side. Everyone will have a must run pod to counter freeholders because if you don't have it then you'll get steamrolled by them, but there's a lot of options. The key is to give the DS something that hurts freeholders, without forcing it into DS decks and without pushing free-holders into use-less land.

Some options:
-More DS 0 cost events to empty your hand after a HatC. (I had an epic turn where I used an admirals orders and then imperial suppression my own admirals orders to ditch some cards last weekend)
-More things to increase LS costs (i.e. Vader's Command and Blockade)
-Things that give you an advantage based on a large hand size, like a unit that gains an extra unit damage or edge for every 2 cards in hand or something.
-A capture interrupt or something that allows you to capture units that are played from hand under their printed cost.

After talking with the FFG guys about this exact issue I can pretty much guarantee nothing will change before the end of the cycle, but they are actively thinking about it and were asking players their thoughts (and that's a good thing I think).

Making holding all the cards Limit 1 per turn may also be a solid solution but I think Dash's pod on his own is strong but okay, adding in freeholders is what makes it too strong. It takes away the downside of Holding all the Cards.
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#19
divinityofnumber

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I really hope that the designers do not act hastily and errata things too severely. LS has some nice options right now, but the good card players still rise to the top in swiss. It isn't like the game is broken and the Top 8 ends up being basically random. Dash is good. Freeholders are good. But, certain DS decks have decent matchups against those builds, and the game is young.

After Worlds I wrote an article urging people to calm down about Sith Holocron. I would suggest the same now. Some decks are very good. Play those decks. Let the game evolve. There will always be some deck that everyone wants to complain about. Relax and breathe.
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#20
Jarratt

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Wait for the cycle to finish and see all the other cards that were all playtested together as a set.


I have i agree with this, the environment will change quite a lot over the next few months. But I'll bite anyway.

Freeloaders are the problem, HatC is the enabler. Most times, you would ban/fix the enabler to fix the problem.

However, if you mess with HatC, you mess up Dash's entire set, which doesn't seem good for the game. I think, due to objective sets, if anything needs to be fixed, it needs to be the problem.


I don't know if I completely agree with this. Holding All The Cards is card draw. While the card drawing mechanics in this game allow you to easily see a lot of your deck, HotC can on occasion spam you into a good hand. The downside is that your opponent has a great edge hand and the pick of cards to keep for next turn. The upside is the tempo that can be built by this for any lightside deck.

If you only ever see 1 HotC an any turn it's going to be useful but not gamebreaking. When you start seeing 3 it becomes pretty insane.

But can you really do that much with all those cards. I definitely think you can. Freeholders is one example, but Defense of Yavin 4 is another example of drawing big and hand dumping to play a bunch of units. You can have a equally explosive first turn.

How much of a problem are Freeholders outside of HatC's. It seemed that people didn't think they were that amazing after just Heroes and Legends.

I see what you are saying, but both have their own issues. HatCs enables more than just Freeholders though

No fix? Sith got to be kings for a year, it's our turn?


Choke didn't get an errata, Sith pods weren't limited or affiliation locked. People found ways to beat Sith control, but mostly Sith limited the types of LS decks you could play. I think FFG would rather not errata, and that is great. If the cards are as written then you can just play. The rules are already pretty complicated.

I suspect that in this situation it needs to just play out. If it continues to have NPE or it just makes the game boring then maybe a change is in order. Playing Sith Control or Free Dash is actually pretty fun. Is it fun to play against is the real question.

I would also argue that the biggest problem is the tournament tie breaking rewards. A Jedi win is not as good as a fast Smuggler win, but it should be. It shouldn't matter how you win or whether you push the dial to 4 or 7 or 10. That you won is all that should matter, because some decks just win different. Obviously this has been discussed at length in many other places though.

Make Dash or Freeholders 'one per deck'?


This isn't a great option. I do wonder why most of the Balance cards are one per deck though when compared to these sets.

Make Freeholders non elite?


My thoughts on this are that it just opens the door for Sith control again, which is kind of defeating the purpose. If the Free Dash decks win most of the time then players need to look for new DS answers, like Scum for example. If Scum can handle Free Dash better than Sith Control or you need to alter the way you build and run your Sith control deck then the Freeholders are doing there job in shifting the meta.

Limit Holding all the Cards to one per turn?


This seems like one of the best options, but that hurts other non-freeholder builds that want to get their combos going. I think a Limit 1 on Freeholders would be better but when you have 4 in the deck and they are your offence I don't think that would work.

Make Holding all the Cards Limited?


I was all for this option until I really thought about it. Limited just messes with too many things. It's mostly a way of limiting resources and all limited cards are related to resources in one way or another. Obviously the Freeholders don't really need resources, but what about non-freeholder decks.

Give Freeholders a max to the discount (like always costs at least 2 or something)


This fixes some problems. But HotC's doesn't have a cost, so even at 2 you can get 2 Freeholders.

Make the Freeholder objective a forced reaction?


Okay I'm kind of amazed that it isn't a Forced Reaction. For some reason I just thought it was. I don't think False Report is a glaring issue and I believe there will be answers for it in the coming days.

The Trust Me ruling is pretty bad but it's not like it's the only objective you can blow up by yourself.

Make Dash's objective Rebel or Jedi affiliation only? (a little extreme)


Super extreme.

I would say that the simplest errata is that the dark side player may choose to draw the cards from HotC or not. That way the cards themselves don't really need to change. It's more an FAQ thing. But I don't know if I like that either.

I look forward to playing against it, and playing it more just to see how much of an impact it will truly have. But it certainly had an impact this weekend.