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What Scoundrel errata do you think would be the most appropriate?

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#21
Scottie

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No fix? Sith got to be kings for a year, it's our turn?


I do not see the issue being one of overall dominance. The issue, in my view, is that if the deck combos out turn one then the game is over, pretty much irregardless of what the DS has or will play. The high end of that combo takes the game out of the game. That would be a problem even if the deck wasn't reliable. That the combo is part of a real deck, just makes the issue more apparent and pressing.

No deck should be able to all but wrap up a game Turn 1 based solely off of if it can draw certain pieces.

Make Dash or Freeholders 'one per deck'?


Errata need to do two things. Solve the issue and do so with the least collateral damage. This would solve the issue, but would also harm those sets usage in decks that aren't problematic. This seems to broad.

Make Freeholders non elite?


This likely doesn't solve the issue and again just hurts the cards playability in decks that aren't a problem.

Limit Holding all the Cards to one per turn?


I think this is the strongest candidate. It prevents an unpreventable turn 1 combo, while not overly hurting the set in other usages. It does hurt the Dash home runs, but he's still a strong unit. Holding would still have it's uses with Dash, Against All Odds, and the Freeholders, but you wouldn't have the high end Turn 1 combo issue.

Make Holding all the Cards Limited?


Doesn't solve the problem anymore then the last suggestion, just makes the card strictly worse.

Give Freeholders a max to the discount (like always costs at least 2 or something)


Again a strong candidate. Even with just a cost of 1 you limit the absurd abuse you can see with this unit.

Make the Freeholder objective a forced reaction?


If the Trust Me ruling gets reversed False Report is no longer an issue.

Make Dash's objective Rebel or Jedi affiliation only? (a little extreme)


Quite extreme, you can do less and likely yield a better outcome.
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#22
Scottie

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However, if you mess with HatC, you mess up Dash's entire set, which doesn't seem good for the game. I think, due to objective sets, if anything needs to be fixed, it needs to be the problem.


I do not think that placing a Limit One on Holding really hurts the playability of Dash's set. The only thing it really takes away is Dash's ability to one shot an objective even after your opponent did all they could to limit his icons, but was unable to prevent his strike. I actually don't think that's a bad ability to take away. Holding is still a great card even with a Limit One and would still serve all it's intended purposes, just not on the high end.

#23
Scottie

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Wait for the cycle to finish and see all the other cards that were all playtested together as a set.


I normally agree, but the ability to combo out Turn 1 and seal up a game isn't something that is ever going to be good for the game.

#24
Scottie

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I really hope that the designers do not act hastily and errata things too severely. LS has some nice options right now, but the good card players still rise to the top in swiss. It isn't like the game is broken and the Top 8 ends up being basically random. Dash is good. Freeholders are good. But, certain DS decks have decent matchups against those builds, and the game is young.

After Worlds I wrote an article urging people to calm down about Sith Holocron. I would suggest the same now. Some decks are very good. Play those decks. Let the game evolve. There will always be some deck that everyone wants to complain about. Relax and breathe.


I don't think you are understanding where some posters are coming from. It's not the deck, it's what happens when the deck hits the high end combo Turn 1.

I actually think the concepts introduced with Against All Odds and The False Report are great for the game. Forcing the DS into being very aware of their hand size, not always opting to take the extra card, and at times overplaying an edge battle to deny the LS a benefit; that is all great. It introduces nice elements of tactical play for both sides. It takes a bit of the edge off of the prevailing DS strategy of always having a large hand for the edge. It really shakes things up and force players to reevaluate what they want to bring. It's awesome that a Sith player may now opt to not put out double Council if he sees it in his opening 4.

But all that positive stuff goes up in smoke when you see 3 Holdings played Turn 1 followed up by a Freeholder or 3 and maybe a Falcon into Dash. Not only is that tactical play that was introduced with those two sets thrown out, but all tactical play is for the most part. There just is not really all much that the DS can do against that, or to prevent it. It's turn 1, they only saw 6-7 cards they could deploy, they can't reliably get rid of more then 3-4 during their deploy. So if the LS sees the combo the DS goose is just cooked. No deck is going to have a decent match-up when that happens, even if they have a decent match-up against the deck overall. The issue is that it is entirely too random. When elimination rounds are decided by who won faster, you are going to have events decided by who got the combo turn 1 and who did not.

The deck itself plays really well. It yields an enjoyable equitable game for both sides. It's got some strong plays, but some areas to exploit. But when the combo goes off early it will end the game before it ever was a game. That's never a good thing.

The comparison to Sith Control doesn't work because Sith Control could never do what the mono-Smuggler deck can do if it sees the right cards.

Again it's not truly an issue of is this deck to good, it's an issue of should any deck have the ability to combo out Turn 1 and have the game wrapped up then and there?
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#25
PBrennan

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Scottie, what do you think the odds are of this not being reported in playtest? I'm not saying that player pressure won't sway towards errata'd change eventually, but it was released knowing all this ... and more. I've won any number of games by LS turn 2 with other decks - Sleuth Scouts/Blockade Runner + Raise The Stakes + Anoat Sector * 2 for one. And that approach was never errata'd. This new combo is just another way to get lucky. It's the nature of the game. Others might say that getting multiple Holocrons/Palps/Exec's out first turn is an auto-win as well. It's a card game, luck plays its part. Which can be thematically exciting if nothing else.
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#26
Scottie

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Scottie, what do you think the odds are of this not being reported in playtest?


0%. But just because it gets reported in play-testing doesn't mean it will get acted on. I've done play-testing for other game systems, and no matter how unanimous or loudly the play-testers called for a certain change doesn't mean it was acted on. At times they were acted on but not correctly or to a large enough degree. I mean I'm sure all the play-testers told FFG how Escape from Ord Mantel/Looking for Droids/Rumors at the Cantina would see no real play, but we still have those sets as is. Game designers don't always listen, in my experience. I know you can't actually say it, but you can't be telling me there weren't cards that the play-testers knew needed a change, in many cases an improvement, but that FFG just didn't want to budge on. It's happened in their other games, we need to look no further then AGoTs restricted list for evidence of it.

I've won any number of games by LS turn 2 with other decks - Sleuth Scouts/Blockade Runner + Raise The Stakes + Anoat Sector * 2 for one.


But those turn 2 wins not only require you to see the right cards, but your opponent to also play right into them as well. Additionally that set up gets to see far less cards then what is currently being talked about, and will not be able to put out substantial units for free so is still somewhat limited by it's resources.

A DS player could have a great first turn. Play a Library , follow it up with two Royal Guards, and be left sitting on a Twist, Mara, and a Palp. Boy that's a sexy looking turn, and hand if I do say so myself They even opt to not draw with thier Council because they respect the Freeholders, rightfully so. Even with a great opening hand and correct tactical play, if the LS player sees 2-3 Holding put of the first 10-12 cards the game could easily be done before it started. That's what was seen fairly often this weekend, the DS put in an insurmountable hole solely on the basis of a strong LS draw with no tactical recourse available to them at the time to prevent they onslaught.

This new combo is just another way to get lucky. It's the nature of the game. Others might say that getting multiple Holocrons/Palps/Exec's out first turn is an auto-win as well. It's a card game. Luck plays its part, which can be thematically exciting if nothing else.


There is lucky, and then there is stupid. Of course there are going to be games where you draw well and your opponent doesn't and no amount of tactical brilliance will save them. Or others where you draw that one card you need right then and there, but hey you put yourself in the position to have an out. Then there is this situation where pretty much regardless of what the DS does (good hand, bad hand, smart play, dumb play), if the LS sees the pieces they want to see they can have such an explosive first turn as to decide the game then and there. At times they may literally win the game right then and there, but mostly just put themselves in such a lead the game is over before either player actually had a chance to do more then solitaire out their first hand.

Do you think that type of lucky is appropriate? I don't. Especially not when it ruins what would be nice tatical intricacies introduced by the new sets that do not need to be explored when you deck just vomits our 3 Freeholders turn 1.

#27
PBrennan

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0%. But just because it gets reported in play-testing doesn't mean it will get acted on. [...] I know you can't actually say it, but you can't be telling me there weren't cards that the play-testers knew needed a change, in many cases an improvement, but that FFG just didn't want to budge on.

Good-o. I just didn't want things to come across as "how could they have missed this". And you're right, as with any playtest, there are many views :-)

This is the game they wanted to present, my point being there's little point discussing errata and such at this point in the cycle.

#28
yodaman

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Scottie, what do you think the odds are of this not being reported in playtest? I'm not saying that player pressure won't sway towards errata'd change eventually, but it was released knowing all this ... and more. I've won any number of games by LS turn 2 with other decks - Sleuth Scouts/Blockade Runner + Raise The Stakes + Anoat Sector * 2 for one. And that approach was never errata'd. This new combo is just another way to get lucky. It's the nature of the game. Others might say that getting multiple Holocrons/Palps/Exec's out first turn is an auto-win as well. It's a card game, luck plays its part. Which can be thematically exciting if nothing else.

- Holocron is limited so the DS could never get out more than 1 on their first turn. Even if it might be viewed as an autowin - the fact is the DS has to get the dial to 12 in order to win so they couldn't win on their first real turn (i.e. their 2nd).

#29
KennedyHawk

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A DS player could have a great first turn. Play a Library , follow it up with two Royal Guards, and be left sitting on a Twist, Mara, and a Palp. Boy that's a sexy looking turn, and hand if I do say so myself They even opt to not draw with thier Council because they respect the Freeholders, rightfully so. Even with a great opening hand and correct tactical play, if the LS player sees 2-3 Holding put of the first 10-12 cards the game could easily be done before it started. That's what was seen fairly often this weekend, the DS put in an insurmountable hole solely on the basis of a strong LS draw with no tactical recourse available to them at the time to prevent they onslaught.


This. Sometimes there's no stopping it.

As an example I had a game with a Vader's Command and Imperial Blockade out, I emptied my hand to three cards, through a combination of holding all the cards and a two cost shifty lookout I was back up to 8 cards (with them spending all their resources). I ended up burning an Admiral's orders just to hold them off. The next turn I again got down to 2 cards this time, another shifty lookout and 2 holding all the cards later and my opponent dropped 3 freeholders. It's sometimes just insane with god-draw, and sometimes awful. But in comparison to sleuths the insanity seems to trigger at a much higher frequency, even when the DS does everything they can to counter it.
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#30
Letux

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Thanks for the feedback. I will say that it was refreshing to see folks that won the roll pick lightside for a change and to be undecided on a dark deck before a tourney instead of it being the other way around.
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#31
JackCade

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How about just making the freeholders unique?

#32
MasterJediAdam

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There probably needs to be a two-pronged attack to what people seem to be a problem:
1) Holding All the Cards should either be limited or unique
2) Freeholders should have a bottom cost limit (I think that 2 is appropriate).
3) Trust Me ruling should be re-evaluated.

I also feel it is important to mention that nothing should be done immediately. There is so very little data on the impact of the cards truly on the meta. We don't even have the remainder of the cards in the cycle, which I can only imagine FFG balanced the individual OSets against both the game writ large and the cycle. I would even condone waiting until the end of the cycle (or later) to issue any errata or guidance.

#33
Jarratt

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I also feel it is important to mention that nothing should be done immediately. There is so very little data on the impact of the cards truly on the meta. We don't even have the remainder of the cards in the cycle, which I can only imagine FFG balanced the individual OSets against both the game writ large and the cycle. I would even condone waiting until the end of the cycle (or later) to issue any errata or guidance.


I totally agree except...

After talking with the FFG guys about this exact issue I can pretty much guarantee nothing will change before the end of the cycle, but they are actively thinking about it and were asking players their thoughts (and that's a good thing I think).


This is really worrying from a design point of view.

Because the 2 sets play together so well it is inconceivable that the combo is not designed. My only real guess is that Light Side combos and god turns are part of how they win. There are already a lot of things you can do with Leia for example. So they probably just saw this as another awesome combo that could win you the game if it came together.

The difference obviously is that it includes card draw which boosts the chances of the combo, and that it doesn't take the set-up as the other combos. You can't win with a Leia deck unless you actually have some units on the board. You can nail this combo on the first turn and win by the 2nd.

I can see why they might not have thought it was a problem, but as Scottie has pointed out, it's a lucked based near auto win in a deck that is mostly strong enough to win on it's own merits without a god draw. And it doesn't matter if the combo doesn't hit turn 1, 2 or 3, you might still hit it at any point in the game to pull out a win.

Obviously the game is at it's best when it's a tense back and forth, as both sides to struggle to attack or defend and keep the game going long enough to win. And while losing in 10mins is fine outside of a tournament, it can totally ruin your day in a tournament.

#34
scarletnite

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I wholeheartedly disagree about any discussion that would errata, adjust, manipulate, etc, the most recent S&S objective sets. They are not overpowered. Like most competitive LS decks before them, they are extremely hit or miss. The advantage they have over other LS decks with high "randomness" is they force your opponent to play differently. If as a DS player you aren't willing to adapt to the new decks you will lose.

Case in point, match at the regional this weekend. First turn my opponent plays Palpatine. Crushing.
I play 2 Holding all the Cards. Drop 2 Freeholders. Attack with one. My opponent has 9 cards in hand and unfocused Palpatine. The only play that makes sense is to block and ditch as many cards as possible -- for which his 9 cards to my 5 will surely win him the edge battle. Instead, he passes, no defenders. I have a bamboozle in hand and at that point the game is lost. He has to discard down to 6 cards instead of drawing options. Palpatine is 4 X Tactics. Having played against the Freeholders at bunch at that point, I knew what the play was, but if you hadn't seen them before or wanted to play Sith like it has been played for a year plus you might not be willing to make that call.

Try playing different. Adapt to the new strategies that have been out for less than 3 weeks before trying to bring in the errata hammer.

TL;DR Nothing wrong with the new sets. Adapt your play style.
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#35
fliptheforce

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Case in point, match at the regional this weekend. First turn my opponent plays Palpatine. Crushing.
I play 2 Holding all the Cards. Drop 2 Freeholders. Attack with one. My opponent has 9 cards in hand and unfocused Palpatine. The only play that makes sense is to block and ditch as many cards as possible -- for which his 9 cards to my 5 will surely win him the edge battle. Instead, he passes, no defenders.


Ben, while I agree with you and understand how strong a player you and your entire time are, the above example is an example of a bad player making a bad decision. There's no reason not to block.

I don't believe the cards need errata/changes/etc, but I support a community that wants it. I agree with you that the deck(s) being presented by the LS players aren't unbeatable, nor broken.

But, that was a really, really bad example ;)

#36
TGO

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Ben, while I agree with you and understand how strong a player you and your entire time are, the above example is an example of a bad player making a bad decision. There's no reason not to block.

I don't believe the cards need errata/changes/etc, but I support a community that wants it. I agree with you that the deck(s) being presented by the LS players aren't unbeatable, nor broken.

But, that was a really, really bad example ;)


I think it should also be pointed out that the player with Palpatine had the setup he needed to fight the freeholders. Palpatine with 9 cards in hand is a good way to handle 1-3 freeholders. The problem then becomes, does the LS have bamboozle or Outmaneuver in their. If they have outmaneuver then Palpatine never gets to block and the outmaneuvered freeholder just comes back for free and the DS is going to lose very quickly.

I am willing to say that I think the Freeholder or Dash set needs to be changed in some way. The answers for the DS are very narrow and weak against a lot of other things. However, that is not even my reason for wanting something done.

These sets have created a very toxic meta by creating LS decks that are capable of winning in 1 or 2 turns, that should not be the case with this game. The DS doesnt have the time to setup its defense in that short amount of time, granted, if they get the nut draw they can, but those games are few and far between. This is going to push a lot of people from the game and could reduce tournament attendance. For those Magic historians, I compare this to the first Mirodin block and Affinity. The deck was so degenerate that a lot of players didnt want to play it or play against it that they left the game. Due to WotC not acting quick enough, it killed tournament participation and the player base shrank by a significant amount.

These sets, in combination with each other, take all the fun out of the game. When a game is no longer fun, players no longer play the game and that in turn means fewer people at tournaments.

I can see the other side of the argument, but at the end of the day, FFG needs to do what is best for this game. We lost a ton of players from the 6 month gap between cycles and I fear that we will lose more players with this toxic LS meta.

Just one persons humble opinion.
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#37
Toqtamish

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Some have been resting too much on their laurels and just using Sith because red is best. Now that is changing and it is causing people to see major issues where none necessarily exist. It will die down as more cards get released and people adapt. I agree with Ben.
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#38
ZackyMidnight

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1. Let's see how the rest of the cycle plays out
2. My first intervention would be to make the min cost 1.

#39
Scottie

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Try playing different. Adapt to the new strategies that have been out for less than 3 weeks before trying to bring in the errata hammer.


The issue, as I see it, is that because we are talking about the Turn 1 capabilities of a deck to combo out to either outright win or seal the game, the ability to play differently is severely limited.

You get one turn before this could hit you in the face and run you over. That's the issue, you can't adapt your play, because you aren't getting anytime to make plays.

You can take precautions. You make sure to play 3-4 cards from your opening hand, you can opt to not use any draw effects, but those precautions won't matter if you can have 4-8 cards stuffed in your hand if your opponent sees the right pieces.

You can adapt your deck in ways to have answers for the big hard to deal with Freeholders or other threats the deck can throw at you, but when you've only gotten to see 6-7 cards from your deck, and only played one turn, you are still just left crossing your fingers that they don't draw what they want. Because if they do you won't get a chance to use those answers.

This isn't a mid game multiple piece combo the DS can disrupt through smart of strategic play, it's possible Turn 1 largely independent of what the DS players has had a chance to even play/see at that point. That in my view is the issue. Scum, Sith, Navy deck doesn't matter the DS doesn't have a real ability to disrupt this combo that early in the game and the upside of the combo is so high it can close out the game.

I like Flip am really confused at the example that you offered. I don't get what you are trying to show with it. Even if you are assuming unfamiliarity or inability to adapt, not blocking there makes no sense. Additionally, even if he makes the correct play, the end result is you still have two elite Freeholders on the table, you've dealt three damage to an objective, and his Palpatine will be locked down going into his turn. I hope he didn't hard play Palp, that would be bad.

So in your example even seeing an ideal opening for the DS player, with one of the few units in game capable of dealing with multiple Freeholders/Friends Turn 1, a half decent play of the combo still results in a fairly large hole for the DS.
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#40
TGO

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How to beat the Freeholder deck in 2 easy steps.

Step 1. Draw Palpatine and Sith Holocron in your opening hand.
Step 2. Hope they dont draw outmaneuver after playing 4 Holding all the Cards.

So easy even a caveman can do it.
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