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What Scoundrel errata do you think would be the most appropriate?

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#41
scarletnite

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There have been plenty of decks with the capability of winning Turn 2 or 3. In the last week I have seen Luke Turn 1 with Trust Your Feelings win on Turn 2. In the last month, I have seen a speeder deck trigger APD successfully three times and win Turn 2, but people weren't complaining. And if they were it was unjustified.

On the flip side of the Dash/Freeholder deck, I had 2 games this weekend by which the DS player completely controlled the board the whole game and I watched as (pure) Sith decks took down 3 objectives, twice! Then in one of those cases my DS deck controlled a Freeholder/Dash deck almost as well. In both cases, I won as the DS, but lost the tiebreaker.

Like most LS decks that have been successful, Dash/Freeholders have an explosive possibility, as well as, huge detrimental possibilities. The new mechanics force people to play differently and that's the whole point. The DS was too strong and capable of winning by complete control. Now more thought and planning is required and that is good for the game.
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#42
Scottie

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Some have been resting too much on their laurels and just using Sith because red is best. Now that is changing and it is causing people to see major issues where none necessarily exist. It will die down as more cards get released and people adapt. I agree with Ben.


I think this statement is absolutely true when it comes to playing against the mono-Smuggler deck overall.
For instance I think the Scum deck played in WV has alot of positives in that match-up. Corrupt Officials to suprise nueter a Dash bomb so you don't have to just chuck cards you need away in the edge, Trandoshans to deal with the Wookies, Boba as an answer to Freeholders/Chewie/Wookies, enough blast damage to not be impotent at taking objectives, and not a terribly high reliance of events in the face of Trust Me (and it's ruling).

However when the mono-Smuggler deck hits its combo Turn 1, as it is not unlikely to do, the resulting plays possible remove a real ability to make a game out of it. The damage out put and unit acceleration/control possible is silly at times.

#43
Scottie

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How to beat the Freeholder deck in 2 easy steps.

Step 1. Draw Palpatine and Sith Holocron in your opening hand.
Step 2. Hope they dont draw outmaneuver after playing 4 Holding all the Cards.

So easy even a caveman can do it.


Or Chewbecca and a Let the Wookie Win, provided no protector.

#44
TGO

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1. Let's see how the rest of the cycle plays out
2. My first intervention would be to make the min cost 1.


What if, the cycle plays out and there is nothing in EotF that fights/stops this combo?
What if, the cycle plays out and we have 40 people playing at Gen Con becuase they quit the game?

Last year, people ******* and moaned about Sith control becuase the game was new and nobody had a clue. Also, the amount of bitching was regional, some areas saw LS winning more while some had DS winning more.

Making them cost 1 is only a bandaid. When you have a deck that has 4 smuggler resources and the DS has 8 cards, paying 4 resources to put out 4 Freeholders is not solving a problem, all it solves is allowing the LS player to also play outmaneuver and Bamboozle. The game is already lost at that point it is just a matter of the game state catching up to that fact.

#45
JackCade

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Making the freeholders unique fixes the problem I think, without making them completely unplayable.

Oh wait, that just means they'll get abused with Kyle Katarn's pod... :rolleyes:

#46
Scottie

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The new mechanics force people to play differently and that's the whole point. The DS was too strong and capable of winning by complete control. Now more thought and planning is required and that is good for the game.


That's my point. All that goes out the window when the LS player can play 3 Freeholders plus other units/events Turn 1 just by drawing the pieces. That level of absurd is not needed to bring balance to the Force.

The general concepts introduced; forcing the DS to be aware of their hand size with ability to punish when they aren't, Dash being able to draw out extra edge cards to keep his damage low, ****** Lookouts giving the LS a possible hand size advantage if not dealt with, more strong units that don't require protectors at all times to stay on the board, all of that is great for the game. It hits directly at what was the overly dominant DS strategy, which is exactly what needed to be hit.

However the side effect of the cards and concepts that added those positives is the negative that a strong LS draw, largely independent of what the DS has had a chance to do, Turn 1 can end the game prior to it really starting. The hits far more them just Sith Control decks.

I never played a Freeholder for less then 3 on Saturday, the one time I played more then one Holding in a turn I still only played 2 bad 2 drops, I still won all 7 of my LS games. 6 against Sith Control, 1 against mono-Scum built with my deck in mind. All were good games, all could have went either way.

The ability to combo out with the deck is not needed to have positively impacted the meta away from certain over dominant Sith builds. The effect of being able to combo out in that manner, largely irregardless of what your opponent has brought or played against you, only serves to over empathize luck and de-empathize play skill.
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#47
doctormungmung

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There have been plenty of decks with the capability of winning Turn 2 or 3. In the last week I have seen Luke Turn 1 with Trust Your Feelings win on Turn 2. In the last month, I have seen a speeder deck trigger APD successfully three times and win Turn 2, but people weren't complaining. And if they were it was unjustified.

On the flip side of the Dash/Freeholder deck, I had 2 games this weekend by which the DS player completely controlled the board the whole game and I watched as (pure) Sith decks took down 3 objectives, twice! Then in one of those cases my DS deck controlled a Freeholder/Dash deck almost as well. In both cases, I won as the DS, but lost the tiebreaker.

Like most LS decks that have been successful, Dash/Freeholders have an explosive possibility, as well as, huge detrimental possibilities. The new mechanics force people to play differently and that's the whole point. The DS was too strong and capable of winning by complete control. Now more thought and planning is required and that is good for the game.


The problem with the Freeholders/Holding all the Cards combo for first/second turn win is that because oh the card draw capability, it has a significantly higher chance of happening that those other LS explosive starts. If it had about the same likelihood, I don't think their would be nearly as much of an uproar. But card draw is king in this (and just about any) card game. Or at least unpenalized card draw. If Sith didn't have Council and Dark Precog wrapped up in such a nice little package, I don't believe that it would have been nearly as dominant as it has been during the history of the game.

#48
Scottie

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Making the freeholders unique fixes the problem I think, without making them completely unplayable.

Oh wait, that just means they'll get abused with Kyle Katarn's pod... :rolleyes:


But I think it takes away what the Freeholders were suppose to do. The overall purpose of the Freeholders looks to punish the DS for keeping to strong of a hand for edge battles. You want to keep 5 cards in hand, well think twice because do you really want to see 2 of these hit the table for cheap? I feel that that is a great inclusion as it now places what was the no-brainer strategy for DS in question. Freeholders as unique largely destroy that positive and are just another decent unit for the LS. It certainly turn the set into a 1 of in nearly all decks it may be used in.

#49
scarletnite

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That's my point. All that goes out the window when the LS player can play 3 Freeholders plus other units/events Turn 1 just by drawing the pieces. That level of absurd is not needed to bring balance to the Force.


I saw this happen once during the Regional. And the Dark Side won the game.

The ability to combo out with the deck is not needed to have positively impacted the meta away from certain over dominant Sith builds. The effect of being able to combo out in that manner, largely irregardless of what your opponent has brought or played against you, only serves to over empathize luck and de-empathize play skill.


If you are showing up to a competitive event without trying to play against the current meta then you are doing it wrong. It shouldn't be irregardless, as the DS player you should be designing your deck to play against new mechanics.
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#50
ZackyMidnight

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What if, the cycle plays out and there is nothing in EotF that fights/stops this combo?
What if, the cycle plays out and we have 40 people playing at Gen Con becuase they quit the game?

Last year, people ******* and moaned about Sith control becuase the game was new and nobody had a clue. Also, the amount of bitching was regional, some areas saw LS winning more while some had DS winning more.

Making them cost 1 is only a bandaid. When you have a deck that has 4 smuggler resources and the DS has 8 cards, paying 4 resources to put out 4 Freeholders is not solving a problem, all it solves is allowing the LS player to also play outmaneuver and Bamboozle. The game is already lost at that point it is just a matter of the game state catching up to that fact.


What if the cycle plays out and the problem fixes itself? I'm not saying it will but you can what if either side

#51
America

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You guys are gonna wear yourselves out discussing this subject. The set has only been out two weeks - so calm down.
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#52
TGO

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What if the cycle plays out and the problem fixes itself? I'm not saying it will but you can what if either side


Even if it fixes itself you still have several months of players leaving the game becuase it is not fun and is a negative experience. Are you willing to gamble the long term health of this game on the principle that you think the problem will fix itself?


You guys are gonna wear yourselves out discussing this subject. The set has only been out two weeks - so calm down.


Dont tell me what to do! :P

It might have been out for 2 weeks here but Spain has had it for 6 weeks already.
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#53
Scottie

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I saw this happen once during the Regional. And the Dark Side won the game.



If you are showing up to a competitive event without trying to play against the current meta then you are doing it wrong. It shouldn't be irregardless, as the DS player you should be designing your deck to play against new mechanics.


There is little to no real ability to design a deck around a mechanic that can put 4-8 cards in your hand Turn 1 and then proceed to play 1-4 Freeholders in conjunction with other large units or events. You can certainly design a deck around combating the general abilities being presented by a mono-Smuggler deck, but you will still be at the mercy of their possible opening hand. I say irregardless because at the time the LS deck can combo out the DS player has seen and had the ability to play relatively few cards overall let alone enough to prevent or possible counteract the possible opening a LS player can have. A DS deck of any affiliation can see a strong opening hand and still just be left in the dust by the LS opening. Is every DS decks suppose to run Vast Resources to try and counter pitch?

As I said it's not the deck that is an issue, it's what it can do Turn 1, prior to any real possible plays from the DS that is the issue.

I'm both very surprised you saw it only once and would like to hear how the DS managed to pull out that game

Side note. Do you ever feel like you are going to deck yourself with Vast Resources? I've been getting oddly close when I've had both that and Holding going against me.

#54
ZackyMidnight

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Even if it fixes itself you still have several months of players leaving the game becuase it is not fun and is a negative experience. Are you willing to gamble the long term health of this game on the principle that you think the problem will


Luckily that decision isn't in my hands at all. I've seen people wanted holo corn, sleuths, palpatine banned or errata. The problem here is that even if you don't get a god draw, the deck is still very strong. I trust and hope ffg will do the right thing here, and as I said originally I hope that the right thing was balanced In when designing the cycle.
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#55
Scottie

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Luckily that decision isn't in my hands at all. I've seen people wanted holo corn, sleuths, palpatine banned or errata. The problem here is that even if you don't get a god draw, the deck is still very strong. I trust and hope ffg will do the right thing here, and as I said originally I hope that the right thing was balanced In when designing the cycle.


I agree, my worry is primarily that they think it's appropriate to have a game decided based on one players opening hand. A major criticism laid at the feet of this game is that it is unforgiving. When that comes to play errors/misjudgements I feel that's fine, that rewards skill. When it comes to opening draws, then you have an issue. Giving, particularly the LS, to much explosive power, especially reliable explosive power, from the word go is detrimental to the game. In that it will create NPE as players feel the game was out of their hands and decided before they had a chance to actually get to playing.

In reality if FFG deems this an issue, they will fix it. They've had issues in AGoT before, and they fix those.

#56
Elrathion

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That's my point. All that goes out the window when the LS player can play 3 Freeholders plus other units/events Turn 1 just by drawing the pieces. That level of absurd is not needed to bring balance to the Force.

The general concepts introduced; forcing the DS to be aware of their hand size with ability to punish when they aren't, Dash being able to draw out extra edge cards to keep his damage low, ****** Lookouts giving the LS a possible hand size advantage if not dealt with, more strong units that don't require protectors at all times to stay on the board, all of that is great for the game. It hits directly at what was the overly dominant DS strategy, which is exactly what needed to be hit.

However the side effect of the cards and concepts that added those positives is the negative that a strong LS draw, largely independent of what the DS has had a chance to do, Turn 1 can end the game prior to it really starting. The hits far more them just Sith Control decks.

I never played a Freeholder for less then 3 on Saturday, the one time I played more then one Holding in a turn I still only played 2 bad 2 drops, I still won all 7 of my LS games. 6 against Sith Control, 1 against mono-Scum built with my deck in mind. All were good games, all could have went either way.

The ability to combo out with the deck is not needed to have positively impacted the meta away from certain over dominant Sith builds. The effect of being able to combo out in that manner, largely irregardless of what your opponent has brought or played against you, only serves to over empathize luck and de-empathize play skill.


Chances of drawing 3 freeholders turn 1... ;) Not to take away from your point but anyone getting similar luck w other decks is going to win fast.
I remember decks getting 2x across the anoat trust me as objectives and people doing a turn 1 falcon and chewbacca and destroying 2 objectives. This game is too much luck based. The more sets they release, the worse it gets.
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#57
KennedyHawk

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Chances of drawing 3 freeholders turn 1... ;) Not to take away from your point but anyone getting similar luck w other decks is going to win fast.
I remember decks getting 2x across the anoat trust me as objectives and people doing a turn 1 falcon and chewbacca and destroying 2 objectives. This game is too much luck based. The more sets they release, the worse it gets.


But those chances are increased when drawing extra cards due to holding all the cards, or dropping some other 0 cost events on the DS's first turn (slicing in etc).

#58
Elrathion

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I agree, but at the same time I think people are taking these exceptions for norm here. I must have run upwards from 60 games with several variants of freeholder decks, and sure I've had a few ridiculous draws, but I've also had a few crappy ones. I'm just a little bit bothered with people here assuming that every game you will be hit with 3 freeholders turn 1. Either they stack their deck or win at the lottery. It doesn't happen THAT often.

Also I've had about 5 players copy my freeholder variant deck on octagon because I won relatively fast and they came back to me and said they couldn't get it to work for them. There is more then luck involved. I'm not saying here that I think freeholders are OK atm, but I'm just wanting to nuance things a bit atm and call for giving it more time to see where the meta goes.

I think the reason we are all frustrated atm is not because of freeholders or dash per say, but because we are getting two VERY strong, meta shaping sets released SO close to the regionals. If this release would have happened for just casual tournaments, I wouldn't care as much ;)
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#59
Toggle

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What if, the cycle plays out and there is nothing in EotF that fights/stops this combo?


Even if there is, the problem is speed, not rock-paper-scissors. Even if there is a hard counter, an arms race (keeping the current acceleration or speeding up the game more) doesn't fix the issue. The more explosive individual turns can get, the less gameplay matters in comparison to the draw.

#60
TGO

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Even if there is, the problem is speed, not rock-paper-scissors. Even if there is a hard counter, an arms race (keeping the current acceleration or speeding up the game more) doesn't fix the issue. The more explosive individual turns can get, the less gameplay matters in comparison to the draw.


I agree, which is why I dont think letting the cycle play out before making a decision is a smart move. FFG has a week to make a decision before we have three more regionals, either the do something or not. I am done getting all worked up about, I said my peace yesterday and I am leaving it at that.
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