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What Scoundrel errata do you think would be the most appropriate?

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#121
Elrathion

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Overall, the main issue with the Freeholders is not as much it's winratio as it is it's ability to just give you a free win. In Swiss that can be mitigated, in elimination that is just NOT ok. Overall there were quite a few players last 2 regionals who had a winratio from 75% to 100% with their dark sides during swiss. So it's not like it can't be beaten. The big problem is that If the god draw happens, its automatically over in the elimination rounds, to where your opponent doesn't even need to think about playing his next round. It's a hard pill to swollow if you just lose a game because of luck and then you are out. Nothing you can do, no second chances. 



#122
yodaman

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Here's two other thoughts in favor of creating new cards to counter things as opposed to errata.  As has been mentioned before a DS card that would cancel LS events would be useful, but a friend suggested that perhaps there's a design reason as to why that hasn't been done yet.  Maybe a DS card that would just cancel zero-cost LS events (like Holding All the Cards, etc..) could be a more moderate approach.  Also, what about the creation of DS card that would be the antithesis of Holding all the Cards in that it forces both players to discard 2 cards, if able? 


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#123
Elrathion

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God no antithesis of Holding All the Cards please ;)



#124
darthbs

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Looking at it from a different view what's hurt me the most in games is not having holding play or freeholders coming out but it's the against all odds objective.

Across the Anoat was already difficult to deal with but this one is worse. Especially when two come out.

You are safe against nothing, even seen taun tauns taking out objectives.

Should this objective have been an if undamaged or smugglers only. Or unique characters only etc.

Any thing to limit its abuse.

#125
brimmstorm

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I think it's great that everyone has a different opinion on what card/cards is ruining the meta now. Some say Holding All The Cards, some say Freeholders, some The False Report, and now a vote for Against All Odds(which I really don't agree with by the way). It sucks that the cycle is playing out during regionals but I really think it would be better at the end of the cycle.

#126
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I think each component is fine on its own, but together it breaks down, so you get different opinions on which component should be addressed.  Holding All the Cards is an enabler card that will make milling to set up any combos easier (in the middle of an awesome aggressive set that fits into any deck).  If not Freeholders (which key off of the enabling fantastically), it will be another combo down the road.

 

I think that fixing the HatC / Freeholder interaction by disallowing it outside the LS conflict phase keeps as much gameplay elements in tact while eliminating the god draw element of dropping free Freeholders.  It also neuters its potential to be abused in the future by cycling through many cards to set up a ridiculous Deployment phase.

 

The board wipe I keep going back and forth on.  I think the wipe itself is fine, but unanswered LS aggression doesn't give the DS a fighting chance.  You can play around it, for the most part.


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#127
TGO

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I think it's great that everyone has a different opinion on what card/cards is ruining the meta now. Some say Holding All The Cards, some say Freeholders, some The False Report, and now a vote for Against All Odds(which I really don't agree with by the way). It sucks that the cycle is playing out during regionals but I really think it would be better at the end of the cycle.


Shifty lookout.
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#128
hundreds

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Yeah I was thinking they could design a pod that is primarily support to help cancel certain things. Kind of like a DS version of Over My Dead Body, a few counter-like events that target these 0-cost LS events, and maybe even a counter to auto bounce a 2-cost LS unit upon playing it.

 

I am primarily a casual player, but all this talk of restricting lists and so forth really rub me the wrong way. Why invalidate a couple of objective sets? We are talking 20% of two different force packs, here. If my cards get banned, I would expect replacements objective sets. I really don't like the idea of errata, but banning and restricting is way worse.

 

I totally agree that high frequency God draws can really ruin the tournament environment, but it seems like new abilities that are designed with several different purposes can easily mitigate the current combo without becoming as TGO put it, the magic bullet that only exists to make the Free Dash HatC fiasco a non issue.



#129
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Shifty is definitely incredible at 1 cost, but a focus token or a Choke can counteract him.

 

I don't think by itself Dash's pod breaks anything, but it's definitely very very powerful.  With milling / card advantage for defense, Shifty, a great heavy unit, a target of opportunity, and a baller objective, I don't know why you wouldn't run 2x of that pod in any deck.  You don't even need Smuggler resource match for it to be effective, pitching Dash in the edge for 3 pips.

 

Maybe this (and the new Gamor set) is all a cruel play to get us all to use Dengar.



#130
ravenorjrp

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If it was me designing the counter, I wouldn't worry about an event that cancels events.   0-cost or otherwise.    The slick design option would be a suite of cards that allows you to discard cards from your hand for some effect.    Also, "As an additional cost to play this card, discard X cards", would be the right phrasing, so that its effect could be cancelled but not the discard portion.

 

Examples :

 

Force Horror - Sith Event, Cost 0 or 1

As an additional cost to play this card, discard any number of cards.   Action: Target any number of units an opponent controls.   For each Force Bubble on cards you discarded to play this card, remove one combat icon from a target unit until end of turn.

 

Suppressive Fire - Navy Event, Cost 0

As an additional cost to play this card, discard any number of cards.   Action : For each card you discarded to play this card, a target enemy unit may not be declared as an attacker or defender this phase.

 

I don't have a good example for Scum because they are terrible.    :-)

 

If the idea of Aquaris Freeholders is to punish the Dark Side for retaining too many cards in their hand, and the idea of Holding All the Cards is to artificially create a scenario where the Dark Side has too many cards, then a discard power makes this at least risky, instead of ideal like it is now.

 

I feel like I give people a good game on OCTGN, I know for a fact Elrathion and I have had some good battles ,and I have won every live event I've ever played in, but right now the game is a little stale for me because of the speed and randomness.   Whatever you feel about the fairness of it, however you feel about the balance of it, just ask yourself this :   If the first game you ever played of Star Wars the Card Game was a game against FreeDash, and you got your **** stomped in exactly one turn, would you ever want to play this game again?    As someone who wants to grow the game, that's the ONLY question that matters.



#131
BobaFett

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I keep reading a lot of suggestions in this thread how event event cancels would fix these issues.   I disagree.  Trust me cancels events, including those that cancel/interrupt other events.  with 2 trust mes in these decks, your usually going to have at least 1 out, which of course, as we know, leads to events getting canceled, slicing in setting up the false report and then game over when your opponent kills his own event.  the only way event cancel would work is via unit/enhancement abilities such as Ferus Olin's ability to discard a shield to cancel an event.  Short of that, just tossing in event cancels won't solve any of the current issues, even though i agree we need to have more cancels in pretty much all factions as they are few and far between at the moment.

 

I think making HatC limited, and fixing the ruling on trust me so that your opponent can't destroy his own objective with only 1 damage on it would go a long way to making the deck a little more tolerable.  Problem is, the deck as a whole has counters and answers to just about everything the DS can throw at it at the moment with cards like, swindled, bamboozled, crossfire, lots of tactics, anti-draw, anti-edge, anti-hand size, anti-event among others.  With all of this combined with the ridiculousness that can come together relatively easy in the first turn or two causes the deck to take away a lot of the skill in the game.  As has been said by Scott and others, the deck pilots you and not the other way around.   personally, its not fun to play against or play with, but unfortunately not playing with some version of dash+freeholders is just disadvantaging yourself.

 

games ending on turn 1 or even 2 take much of the skill out of the game because there is just nothing you can do to counter most of these situations that quickly, so its just game over, and thats not fun, nor is it skillfull.  Its luck.  You get the nut draw, you win.


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#132
Scottie

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Overall, the main issue with the Freeholders is not as much it's winratio as it is it's ability to just give you a free win. In Swiss that can be mitigated, in elimination that is just NOT ok. Overall there were quite a few players last 2 regionals who had a winratio from 75% to 100% with their dark sides during swiss. So it's not like it can't be beaten. The big problem is that If the god draw happens, its automatically over in the elimination rounds, to where your opponent doesn't even need to think about playing his next round. It's a hard pill to swollow if you just lose a game because of luck and then you are out. Nothing you can do, no second chances.

 

I agree with your overall point.  I also think your Regional report perfectly highlights the overall issues with this games event rules and the mono-Smuggler deck.

 

3 Elimination Rounds, and you only got to play 2 real games.  You never got to play a DS game attempting to actually win because you went into every game knowing you only had to get the dial to a certain low bar.  And as you noted you last LS game, in the finals of an event, was over because you hit the god-draw to open.  None of that is good for the competitive health of a game, and I feel is a prime example as to why both the mono-Smuggler deck and the Elimination Rounds rules need to be looked out.  I think separately both are an issue, and together are just plain NOT ok, as you put it.