Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Shadowsun's Stealth Cadre and Ambush Platform


  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#1
Etaywah

Etaywah

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1046 posts

My question is, since the Shadow Cadre clearly states you can play from your hand as an attachment, can you use the Ambush Platform to Combat Action it onto an army as an attachment?

 

http://www.cardgamed...h-platform-r179

 

 

 

http://www.cardgamed...alth-cadre-r157



#2
AwesomeLion

AwesomeLion

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Afraid not.

 

"This card may enter play as an attachment with the text, β€œAttach to a non-Vehicle army unit. Attached unit gets +2 ATK and +2 HP.” "

 

"Combat Action: Exhaust this support to deploy an attachment from your hand. "

 

This card is not an attachment while it is in your hand therefore it is not a legal target.


  • Dre2Dee2 likes this

#3
Jvirtue55

Jvirtue55

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 66 posts
I have seen some where else the contrary posted by play testers that the platform works but not the warlords ability on the attachment characters

#4
AwesomeLion

AwesomeLion

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

I have seen some where else the contrary posted by play testers that the platform works but not the warlords ability on the attachment characters

 

They would be wrong =)

 

"If an ability causes a cardtype to change (such as a unit card that may be played as an attachment), it loses all other cardtypes it might possess and functions as would any card of the new type.". A card obtains the new type when activated. Ref. page 5 in the RR.


#5
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

AwesomeLion be very brave lion calling playtesters wrong :-)

 

I've previously confirmed with the design team that the intention is that cards like Gun Drones and Stealth Cadre can enter play via Ambush Platform.

 

In order to make it a strict ruling like AwesomeLion is advocating (ie that it be limited to its physical cardtype), an ability would probably say something like "deploy a card with the attachment cardtype". But that's not the case here.

 

GD and SSC both have a constant that allow them to be deployed as attachments. These constants are on, even whilst in your hand, otherwise they wouldn't work. (Normally constants only turn on when they enter play, but the RRG "In Play" section is careful to allow that "Card abilities can only be initiated or affect the game from an in play area unless they specifically refer to being used from an out of play area, or require that the card be out of play for the ability to resolve.". Which is the case here.)

 

So when I initiate the Ambush Platform action, I check that yes I do have a card I can deploy from hand as an attachment, and therefore I can carry on and do so.


  • Etaywah likes this

#6
Etaywah

Etaywah

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1046 posts
After getting to know FFG through game of thrones I've developed an eye for when they are leaving the player a hint, and stealth cadre has a specific wording that makes it work.

Now take a look at gun drones

http://www.cardgamed...gun-drones-r169

"You may deploy this unit as a drone attachment..."

This one is a bit different, simply because deploy typically means played from hand during the deployment phase. Yay or nay?

#7
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

"Deploy" is a subset of "enter play". If it can "enter play", it can automatically "deploy".

 

Cadre is deliberately worded as "enter play" to allow it to work with Shadowsun's ability. Gun Drones is deliberately worded as "deploy" to ensure it can't work with Shadowsun's ability. But both work with Ambush Platform.

 

Deploy is not limited to the deployment phase in any way. It's a generic term which can be used by any effect in any phase. It just happens to mostly be associated with the deployment phase because that's when most deploys happen.

 

Further, "from the hand" defines the source, it's not a function of deploy itself. If an effect said "deploy from the discard pile", then that's what it can do.


  • KennedyHawk likes this

#8
KennedyHawk

KennedyHawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1890 posts

"Deploy" is a subset of "enter play". If it can "enter play", it can automatically "deploy".

 

Cadre is deliberately worded as "enter play" to allow it to work with Shadowsun's ability. Gun Drones is deliberately worded as "deploy" to ensure it can't work with Shadowsun's ability. But both work with Ambush Platform.

 

Deploy is not limited to the deployment phase in any way. It's a generic term which can be used by any effect in any phase. It just happens to mostly be associated with the deployment phase because that's when most deploys happen.

 

Further, "from the hand" defines the source, it's not a function of deploy itself. If an effect said "deploy from the discard pile", then that's what it can do.

 

Yup this is different from the unit/enhancement hybrids from star wars. Luke/Wedge can be played as an enhancement, but they can't be deployed using the upcoming spoiled Luke set (if I recall correctly). I'm with PBrennan on this one. (Plus he's an expert!)



#9
Etaywah

Etaywah

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1046 posts
Well it looks like Tau already has a few dirty tricks up their sleeves. A planet may look like a tasty morsel to an unsuspecting opposing warlord, 1 commit and an ambush platform changes the whole game, not to mention the various mobile keywords lurking around Tau.

With the right board state and attack setup you could turn what looks like an under-staffed first world into an absolute slaughter.
  • KennedyHawk likes this

#10
KennedyHawk

KennedyHawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1890 posts

Well it looks like Tau already has a few dirty tricks up their sleeves. A planet may look like a tasty morsel to an unsuspecting opposing warlord, 1 commit and an ambush platform changes the whole game, not to mention the various mobile keywords lurking around Tau.

With the right board state and attack setup you could turn what looks like an under-staffed first world into an absolute slaughter.

 

One thing I'm sure is covered but I can't remember, can a warlord exhaust to retreat during the ranged skirmish? I ask this in case someone sneaks 2-3 ranged units on to a planet. Is that one of the ways to snipe a warlord without them retreating?



#11
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

Only if that warlord has ranged, and therefore has the right to attack during the ranged skirmish, and therefore perform a retreat in lieu of its attack. So usually, no, because it's rare that a warlord gets ranged. It follows that warlords have to be very careful where they commit when ranged capability is about.

 

And yep, Tau can be potent. Attachments ramp up units, but the downside is you have fewer units. I enjoy exploring the duality - spending resources/cards on attachments instead of units means your board state is generally both more potent and more fragile at the same time.


  • KennedyHawk likes this

#12
AwesomeLion

AwesomeLion

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

AwesomeLion be very brave lion calling playtesters wrong :-)

 

All Lion's are brave XD I think.. C=

 

Honestly though if PBrennan says otherwise, I am inclined to buckle and give inn cus' I tend to take most of what he says as near official statement lol. So maybe I am just to stuck in the ways of MtG. Based on the ruling on page 5 in the Rules Reference book, for me it reads very much as they way I interperted it, but if PBrennan says otherwise, I get the sinking feeling I must have got it wrong =|



#13
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

Call me Patrick ... everyone else does. I'm not infallible, I've been on the wrong side of a few "surprise" rulings in Star Wars, which has taught me to be wary about being adamant on any ruling. But on this one I went back and checked past correspondence. Your logic's solid, it's just that those constants allow you to turn it into an attachment and thus satisfy your logic.

 

(We don't want to get into the timing semantics of when exactly that happens though, because down that road lies true madness ... I just go along with "it happens when I decide it happens" - the initiated ability/framework allows me to deploy something now, and the constant allows me to deploy this one, so all's good!!)


  • KennedyHawk likes this

#14
Christars

Christars

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 48 posts

Hm. I'll do a checklist and check if I understand this.
 

  • Ambush Platform can deploy anything that can "deploy" as an attachment, be it an actual attachment or an army-that-can-be-an-attachment (but only by deploying it as an attachment, not as an army).
  • Ambush Platform will reduce the cost of an army-that-can-be-an-attachment when this is deployed as an actual attachment. (?)
  • Ambush Platform will not reduce the cost of an army-that-can-be-an-attachment if this is deployed as an army.
  • There are no differences in the finer mechanics of how Stealth Cadre and Gun Drones can be deployed, with (so far) the sole exception of Commander Shadowsun. In general, though, Stealth Cadre's wording is slightly more permissive.

 

Did I miss anything?



#15
AwesomeLion

AwesomeLion

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

To be honest with you Patrick, every time I re-read the text on the cards, my conclusion seems to the logical and correct one, I've just concluded that it is the way you say it, because you say it lol. I think this is just a rule text that is simply over my head that I will just have to accept that, that's just how it is =p It's as you said, I think I'm getting lost in the timing of it. You got to wonder, how many more of these surprises will show up in future war packs? =D

 

Anyh00t, thanks for setting me straight. I was pretty sure about that one =/



#16
Etaywah

Etaywah

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1046 posts
I honestly don't see how the card text is leading you to think otherwise, it basically says "you may play this card as if it were an attachment." In other words: "this card is both an army and an attachment."

#17
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

Yeah I know, it's easy to get caught up on "at what point does it get to be considered an attachment and no longer a unit" and that can do your head in.

 

I'll try wording another way in case it helps: When Ambush Platform initiates, you don't check that an actual attachment exists in your hand - especially as there's no targeting. This might be where you're getting stuck. The actual rule is that when you initiate an action, you must be able to successfully complete the effect given the current game state. Because the GD/SSC constant is "on" in the hand and enables this card to be deployed as an attachment, the current game state allows that yes, I can alter the game state so that an attachment is added to play, deployed, which wasn't there before - ie an attachment has been deployed. The card may not be an attachment right now in the hand, doesn't matter. What matters is that when I've resolved the effect, I'll have deployed an attachment, satisfying the effect. Anyways ...

 

(Christars, yep, looks right. SSC allows it to be "put into play" for free, GD can't.)



#18
Etaywah

Etaywah

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1046 posts

(Christars, yep, looks right. SSC allows it to be "put into play" for free, GD can't.)


Are you saying gun drones can be used by shadowsuns ability? If not, why?

#19
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

Deploy (must pay) and Put Into Play (don't pay) are both subsets of "Enter Play".

 

Shadowsun allows you to "put into play" an attachment. Ambush Platform allows you to "deploy" an attachment.

 

Cadre's constant allows it to enter play as an attachment - which means Cadre can be either put into play as an attachment (as per Shadowsun) or deployed as an attachment (as per Ambush Platform).

 

Gun Drone's constant only allows it to be deployed as an attachment, not put into play. This means it can't be used by Shadowsun but it can by Ambush Platform.



#20
KennedyHawk

KennedyHawk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1890 posts

Only if that warlord has ranged, and therefore has the right to attack during the ranged skirmish, and therefore perform a retreat in lieu of its attack. So usually, no, because it's rare that a warlord gets ranged. It follows that warlords have to be very careful where they commit when ranged capability is about.

 

And yep, Tau can be potent. Attachments ramp up units, but the downside is you have fewer units. I enjoy exploring the duality - spending resources/cards on attachments instead of units means your board state is generally both more potent and more fragile at the same time.

 

Thanks basically I just learned Preemptive Barrage is hax!