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The Packmaster Kith Thread


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#41
Kingsley

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Yes, I think Agonizer is very mediocre and win-more for a signature attachment-- I suspect the "you used to be able to put it on your Warlord but it got nerfed late in development" proposal rings true. Consider that Ion Rifle costs the same amount and consistently gives +3 attack. The only times when Agonizer is going to be much better than that is when you have a ton of Khymerae that your opponent hasn't been able to counter-- in which case you're probably winning anyway.

 

That said, no card with 3 shield icons is bad at this stage in the game, and I've won games on the back of an Agonizer + Hypex Injector Mandrake-- but I do think that most of the other signature attachments are better than Agonizer. In general I see it played as a shield more often than I see it actually deployed.



#42
MotoBuzzsawMF

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OK. Taking a swing at DE/E for some controlly fun. 

 

 

Total Cards: (51)
 
Warlord: 
1x Packmaster Kith (Core Set) 
 
 
Army Unit: (28)
4x Kith’s Khymeramasters (Core Set)
3x Baleful Mandrake (Core Set)
3x Hellion Gang (Core Set)
3x Incubus Warrior (Core Set)
3x Kabalite Strike Force (Core Set)
2x Murder of Razorwings (Core Set)
3x Rogue Trader (Core Set)
3x Sybarite Marksman (Core Set)
1x Syren Zythlex (Core Set)
3x Altansar Rangers (Core Set)
 
Attachment: (6)
1x Agonizer of Bren (Core Set)
3x Promotion (Core Set)
2x Suffering (Core Set)
 
Event: (12)
2x Pact of the Haemonculi (Core Set)
3x Archon’s Terror (Core Set)
2x Doom (Core Set)
3x Power from Pain (Core Set)
2x Superiority (Core Set)
 
Support: (5)
1x Khymera Den (Core Set)
2x Altar of Torment (Core Set)
2x Twisted Laboratory (Core Set)
 
Cards that were cut. 
 
Shrouded Harlequin: I liked the control aspect of them but can be easily sidestepped by killing off last during a combat round. 
 
Beasthunter Wytches: I would like them better if they produced a Khymera just by playing the event and not paying any extra. Could find their way back in if I find that the Khymeras are more important than I am thinking. 
 
There may have been others but these are the ones that I worried over. We will see what happens after tests.
 
Let me know what you think. Any better way to optimize control while staying potent in combat?


#43
sparrowhawk

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Ok some initial thoughts (quite late here) - totally unqualified.

I like the 9 ranged unit synergy! Ranged is best at deterrence against warlord sniping as him winning initiative from surprise sniping means nothing.

You don't like Eldar Survivalists? Also your build looks so cheap (nothing over 3), surely Void Pirates are better than Traders? Pirates for low curve, Traders for high curve seems to be a good rule of thumb. Shields also make cards pretty useful to have.

I'm currently not a fan of Razorwings like Colliseum Fighters for the same reason - these events-on-a-stick need to be abused for a second effect benefit like a sacrifice beyond Pact. Though they could disrupt control builds badly, I suppose, lucky removal of their Nullify or Doom. A meta-call, I guess.

I do like applying some command pressure on First Planet with a Falcon so as to lure the opponent into over-committing into your Doom but I don't think this is your preferred play style. Also this is a far more aggressive control build. So maybe not here.

I'm not a fan of Power from Pain - yet (it's any unit in play, I first misread it as any unit in a current battle). I don't think the meta has developed for this card yet. To give a Thrones analogy, the event should be like playing Marched to the Wall on their Tower Maester or last surviving Viper's Bannermen having burnt away the chuds first. We just don't have the ability to burn away the chaff to make this event worth the opportunity cost of having something better. Especially since you aren't leveraging Dark Eldar event synergies like the Injector or Wyches.

I see you chose Promotion over Raid and this may be a meta-call to protect against common Warpstorms. I also like Superiority in the Promotion-rich meta. Problem is that your units aren't exactly resilient to safely host a Promotion and already have good icons so a Superiority on you really hurts. You may be better off with the 2 shields of Raid because of the fragility of your units, not wanting a 2-for-1.

Now I can see the above working as is but it doesn't suit my style. My changes would be...

-2 Razorwings
-1 Altar of Torment
+3 Eldar Survivalist

-3 Rogue Trader
+3 Void Pirate

-3 Promotion
+3 Raid

-3 Power from Pain
+1 Suffering
+1 Superiority
+1 Syren Zythlex (awesome planet presence)

The Raids and the 3rd Superiority is more about denial, choke in Thrones. I feel they synergise well. Having 1 less resource when you would have 4 hurts far more than having 1 less when you would have 8. The pain or benefit of losing or gaining your nth resource is 1/n. So why not focus on more choke? Why bother with the card denial of Razorwings if you deny resources instead. Focus on denying one or the other. Let him have either too many cards and too few resources. Or too many resources and not enough cards. It's a MIN function really where MIN (cards x2, resources) indicates your options flexibility. You only need to focus on restricting 1 of them.

Overall though, I like your ambition to go with cost-efficient low-to-mid range units. Your units are combative enough to contest first planet but also well placed to garrison and Doom if a snowball gathers pace. So very versatile. There's a very Colonel Straken feel to it still, though - but with more control elements.

I'd call this sort of cheap aggressive control build "aggro-control". Because there are both aggro cards and control cards here. In fact Kith is littered with this dichotomy, a totally schizophrenic card pool like the very aggressive signature squad yet also the control of loyal Ravager. I believe your build's concept of aggro-control is perfectly viable. You place down threats. When opponent plays an answer (say Assault Guard), you have an answer (Archon's Terror or Laboratory). Suffering will weaken attack units (also 2 shields). In this way, you grab the aggressive ground then foil opponent's attempts to wrest the advantage off you. This very tempo-driven aggro-control strategy will also benefit most from shields (hence 3 Raid, 3 Suffering suggested) in ensuring you keep the pressure on. It doesn't matter if you are on 0 cards and he has 7 if you have 3 planets with the same icon.

I think Kith is perfectly suited to such an aggro-control strategy and your build above plays to those strengths. In fact, if it were not for synergy with Terror, if you are pursuing this aggro-control strategy, I would question the need for Doom (heresy). Still, it's nice insurance and it can turn games around, keeps opponents honest by curbing their enthusiasm to contest for First Planet in fear of over-committing (as your cheap cards and a fear of Raid, playable during command struggle anyway, means you should deploy longer, you can even stall with a Laboratory on a Cultist, especially if this would mess up his telegraphed 5-cost Bloodletter he can now no longer deploy).

But the main problem I have with Kith is her best card is not loyal. So I find the advantages of building Eldar or Chaos are greater.

Usual declaimer: this may be utter bollox etc etc.

Looking forward to hearing how your tests get on.

#44
Dre2Dee2

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Basically what Sparrowhawk said.

Beasthunter Wyches are bad. Their ability really should be free, but I'm guessing it was nerfed because of a previous version of Agonizer that existed... :ph34r:

 

Let us know how the 3 mandrakes/rangers works out. I used to run a deck that had that, but they were so expensive to reliably put out that I cut them. Welcome to the dark side. :lol:


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#45
MotoBuzzsawMF

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I will probably make the changes that SparrowHawk suggested before testing (I will do some testing today). I did not realize Power from Pain is not planet targeted. That drastically lowers the usage of it. Sure, you are making your opponent sack something that he/she invested in but removing a chud does not usually help you. 

 

I am curious to see how the amount of ranged goes. To my knowledge, DE is capable of the most inherent ranged of any faction currently. Not counting Preemptive Barrage of course. 

 

I cannot remember if the DE ranged is loyal or not and I am to lazy to look right now whilst typing this. 



#46
MotoBuzzsawMF

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Updated List: 

 

Total Cards: (51)
 
Warlord: 
1x Packmaster Kith (Core Set) 
 
 
Army Unit: (30)
4x Kith’s Khymeramasters (Core Set)
3x Altansar Rangers (Core Set)
3x Baleful Mandrake (Core Set)
3x Eldar Survivalist (Core Set)
3x Hellion Gang (Core Set)
3x Incubus Warrior (Core Set)
3x Kabalite Strike Force (Core Set)
3x Sybarite Marksman (Core Set)
2x Syren Zythlex (Core Set)
3x Void Pirate (Core Set)
 
Attachment: (4)
1x Agonizer of Bren (Core Set)
3x Suffering (Core Set)
 
Event: (13)
2x Pact of the Haemonculi (Core Set)
3x Archon’s Terror (Core Set)
2x Doom (Core Set)
3x Raid (Core Set)
3x Superiority (Core Set)
 
Support: (4)
1x Khymera Den (Core Set)
1x Altar of Torment (Core Set)
2x Twisted Laboratory (Core Set)


#47
sparrowhawk

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Looks good, Buzzsaw! (You have got an extra card, didn't notice that before, maybe a Superiority or Zyren copy.)

You are the bully. You have low-cost aggression. Use stall tactics to deploy last. If he bullies First Planet with an over-commit, you know what to do: during combat, Terror his fatty in another planet then Doom next turn. Sometimes, you can see he desperately wants that planet so, assuming it doesn't help him win, save that Doom and stall on that turn to force the over-commit.

No warlord can snipe as good as Kith. She brings 4ATK with her. This means you can feign no interest in that Farseer + Survivalist at Carnath when opponent has initiative. Instead bully first planet so opponent backs off, then surprise snipe at Carnath to bring 4 ready ATK with her. In command phase, after he collects for other planets, you can play Raid to crucially deny the 2 he needs for an Isha intervention. In combat, the Farseer will die, the Survivalist will flee (assuming he uses 1 shield), you get to ready before triggering Carnath. You are now up in the economy game from that crucial snipe.

AoE and Warpstorm is your enemy, as well as usual partial wipes. Predict what your opponent will play from his build and keep your control cards (Terror, Laboratory) for the problems he will play. Whilst you can play around opponent's Doom or Exterminatus to some extent by just not over-committing to First or Later planet respectively, Warpstorm is a big problem for this build. Just hope to mug them fast before they can draw it. Or out-produce him and chuck your many shields against it.

Try and lull your opponent to fall into your tempo traps like Raid (any phase action) and Superiority. Say he places a Tactical Unit Cardini in a distant planet and no Limited play yet. Place a Pirate there. Predict he will either let it go, attract Cato for a snipe (which could be elsewhere) or ideally play a last gasp Promotion (on a 3HP unit) to win that struggle. Great, he fell into your Superiority trap. Because the pool is so small, Promotion is the limited card of choice for 5 factions - so use it just before that planet's command struggle is resolved to deny rewards and transfer them to you.

Knowing you play Thrones, the deck concept should play similar to Stark Murder in many ways but also like Greyjoy (light) Choke. Control the game by being coy during deployment until he has passed (spending ahead to avoid Raid) then aggro deploy and be aggressive in other phases.

Good luck with testing and hope it goes well. (You seem to like the challenge of all the hardest factions like Imperial Guard and now Kith who feels slightly schizophrenic in the DE pool.) I personally think she's one of the hardest to play and I am surprised she's so popular on OCTGN.

#48
MotoBuzzsawMF

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Looks good, Buzzsaw! (You have got an extra card, didn't notice that before, maybe a Superiority or Zyren copy.)

You are the bully. You have low-cost aggression. Use stall tactics to deploy last. If he bullies First Planet with an over-commit, you know what to do: during combat, Terror his fatty in another planet then Doom next turn. Sometimes, you can see he desperately wants that planet so, assuming it doesn't help him win, save that Doom and stall on that turn to force the over-commit.

No warlord can snipe as good as Kith. She brings 4ATK with her. This means you can feign no interest in that Farseer + Survivalist at Carnath when opponent has initiative. Instead bully first planet so opponent backs off, then surprise snipe at Carnath to bring 4 ready ATK with her. In command phase, after he collects for other planets, you can play Raid to crucially deny the 2 he needs for an Isha intervention. In combat, the Farseer will die, the Survivalist will flee (assuming he uses 1 shield), you get to ready before triggering Carnath. You are now up in the economy game from that crucial snipe.

AoE and Warpstorm is your enemy, as well as usual partial wipes. Predict what your opponent will play from his build and keep your control cards (Terror, Laboratory) for the problems he will play. Whilst you can play around opponent's Doom or Exterminatus to some extent by just not over-committing to First or Later planet respectively, Warpstorm is a big problem for this build. Just hope to mug them fast before they can draw it. Or out-produce him and chuck your many shields against it.

Try and lull your opponent to fall into your tempo traps like Raid (any phase action) and Superiority. Say he places a Tactical Unit Cardini in a distant planet and no Limited play yet. Place a Pirate there. Predict he will either let it go, attract Cato for a snipe (which could be elsewhere) or ideally play a last gasp Promotion (on a 3HP unit) to win that struggle. Great, he fell into your Superiority trap. Because the pool is so small, Promotion is the limited card of choice for 5 factions - so use it just before that planet's command struggle is resolved to deny rewards and transfer them to you.

Knowing you play Thrones, the deck concept should play similar to Stark Murder in many ways but also like Greyjoy (light) Choke. Control the game by being coy during deployment until he has passed (spending ahead to avoid Raid) then aggro deploy and be aggressive in other phases.

Good luck with testing and hope it goes well. (You seem to like the challenge of all the hardest factions like Imperial Guard and now Kith who feels slightly schizophrenic in the DE pool.) I personally think she's one of the hardest to play and I am surprised she's so popular on OCTGN.

 

You are totally right. My intention was to make a deck that can control the temp of deployment, choke command and bully battles with terror and cheap units.

 

I just had my first game and it was a mirror match so it was not the best way to test it in the world but any game will do. It actually worked really well even with a balls to the wall, no mulligan with only 2 units in hand. I was able to control temp by playing cheap 1 cost units and supports while using raid to siphon some resources. I got 2 Pact of Homonc during the game and that card is incredible, allowing me to toss a doom and terror from my opponent. 

 

I won the game at the 4th planet with only deploying two total units to it and pulling in 4 standing Khymera's using the Den whilst using 2 Terrors to remove his 2 biggest standing units. I also had Zyren at the winning planet prior to deployment by triggering the "move a unit" planet the turn prior. 

 

The deck did what I wanted it too but I found that, even though I was winning and by a good margin near the end. I felt like my grasp on victory was tenuous indeed. Their units are so fragile that one Kabalite would have crushed my dreams. Or any AoE for that matter. I am going to test again with no changes to see if I get the same results.

 

More to come. 


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#49
MotoBuzzsawMF

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Good luck with testing and hope it goes well. (You seem to like the challenge of all the hardest factions like Imperial Guard and now Kith who feels slightly schizophrenic in the DE pool.) I personally think she's one of the hardest to play and I am surprised she's so popular on OCTGN.

 

I am very much like that LOL.

 

Usually when I hear someone say "this deck is garbage, cannot be used" or something along those lines. My usual response is "Challenge Accepted" with a loud and resounding "BUZZSAW M@%$^%#-FU*&%#"

 

This is why I am not allowed in churches or schools.



#50
MotoBuzzsawMF

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Ok. Game to was an out right demolition. I started the match with 2 eldar survivalist and a ranged 3 atk..guy forgot his name. 

 

I was able to pull all 3 of my superiority's. So next command phase, my SM opponent was unable get get a single command due to me predicting his warlord movement and I had a ton of cards. I won the first planet with 3 ranged units wiping him. Next planet combat, I was able to shield my Khymera and my opponent scooped. 

 

So far so good with this deck. Thank you Sparrowhawk for the recommendations. 


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#51
MotoBuzzsawMF

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Has anyone had any success using Power from Pain? 



#52
Dre2Dee2

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Nope, it's awful.  :(


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#53
MotoBuzzsawMF

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Nope, it's awful.  :(

 

lol shucks. I like the idea of it. Forcing your opponent to lose tempo by having to sacrifice a character. I wish that the card actually did as named. When I think of power from pain I think of an effect like "Choose an enemy unit, reduce that units ATK by -2 and target a unit you control to gain +2" 

Or something like that. That would have been fantastic. 

 

Also, it being a combat action is holding it back. 

 

Now, I can see this used strategically in the combat phase after a battle, but the circumstances sound to great for it to be effective. I hate the idea of using this and paying 2r for my opponent to sack a recon drone or something. 



#54
Dre2Dee2

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Yeah its too bad, but Terror is better in every way. I mean maybe if Chaos decks that just dump helldrake first turn gets really popular, then it'll be good, but Raid/Terror are so much better. If it was just a regular action, it would be markedly improved... or if it had more shields... or was cheaper. (. _. )



#55
Kingsley

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Has anyone had any success using Power from Pain? 

 

Yes, but only in a Chaos burn deck, and I'm not sure it's very good. It has strong antisynergy with two-cost two-icon units, which are normally some of the best units in the game. I think that if this works at all, it fits in a different paradigm from standard play.



#56
Asklepios

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I think it can work, in the deck that keys around Event activation and recursion. It also requires a meta that is less inclined towards hordes of mooks.

 

 I have to say that I've definitely felt the pain when this card is timed well against me. Its definitely a tough choice when you have worked it out so that the four units you have out give you board advantage, and then you get one killed in combat, and then this card drops out screwing the math and turning a close win into a dramatic loss. Its a lot weaker, of course, when your opponent can make an easy choice as to who to sacrifice, but clearly the card gets held back in that circumstance, and failing all else a shield is always handy.



#57
Asklepios

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Anyway, here we go: Deldar Eventer.

 

Goal of the deck here is to play as many Dark Eldar events as possible, exerting control through doing so. Its command struggle weak, and can suffer to AoE, so save the Archon's Terrors for AoE. Win battles by attacking with lots of disposable low cost high attack units.

 

Deck Created with  CardGameDB.com  Warhammer 40,000: Conquest Deckbuilder


Total Cards: (50)

Warlord:
1x Packmaster Kith (Core Set)


Army Unit: (32)
4x Kith’s Khymeramasters (Core Set)
3x Beasthunter Wyches (Core Set)
3x Coliseum Fighters (Core Set)
3x Murder of Razorwings (Core Set)
3x Kabalite Strike Force (Core Set)
1x Syren Zythlex (Core Set)
3x Shrouded Harlequin (Core Set)
3x Sybarite Marksman (Core Set)
3x Void Pirate (Core Set)
3x Incubus Warrior (Core Set)
3x Eldar Survivalist (Core Set)

 

Yep, its an expendable weenie swarm. Goal here is to keep deploying after the pass, and then use Events to exercise aggressive control. Command struggle presence is weak, Eldar Survivalist is just to draw opposing warlord away from Planet 1, which is where your warlord will be seizing initiative, as striking first is really important.

Draw > Resources because low costs, and combo reliant.

Attachment: (3)
1x Agonizer of Bren (Core Set)
2x Hypex Injector (Core Set)

 

Hypex Injectors are advantage multipliers, deploy delayers etc, but don't be afraid to hold them back for light shielding. 3 is too many for the advantage it gives and the narrowness of cirumstances, hence a lighter commitment.

Event: (12)
2x Pact of the Haemonculi (Core Set)
3x Archon’s Terror (Core Set)
2x Power from Pain (Core Set)
3x Raid (Core Set)
2x Doom (Core Set)

 

I know, thats a lot of events, but thats the point of the deck. Doom is there as a saving mechanism rather than as a core strategy: this deck expects to be running a sizeable Warlord train.

Lots of cheap units to chuck to Haemonculi (Murder of Razorwings a favourite).

Events should generally be held back till they have a dual effect from another card (Hypex or Beasthunter Wyches).

Support: (3)
1x Khymera Den (Core Set)
2x Altar of Torment (Core Set)

 

Something like 80% Dark Eldar here, so going by my rule of thumb that means 2 x the discounter. Best use for Den here is first planet -> second planet, after the battle, or for a deply action delay if there's a useful move.
 

Thoughts?



#58
Dre2Dee2

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I wouldn't run 3 Coliseum Fighters, even in an event recursion deck. Their stats are too much of a liability for that. Also, I know your running x2 Power for Pain, but I would rather run Superiority over that. It'll help you win command struggles, is one resource cheaper, and won't interfere with your ability to recur Terror (your best event). If you have PfP, you might end up with turns where its on top of your deck since it will probably be the last even you played from the prior turns combat phase, ruining your plans. PfP is not anything I would recur above any of your other events.

 

3 of Razorwings, Strike Force, and Marksman makes me super nervous that your going to get blown out during command struggles in the early game.

Also if you are maining DE, always run x2 Syren. Every DE deck should have x3 Terrors, x3 Raids, and x2 Syrens at this point, no questions asked.

 

THE ARCHON HAS SPOKEN :lol:



#59
MotoBuzzsawMF

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I wouldn't run 3 Coliseum Fighters, even in an event recursion deck. Their stats are too much of a liability for that. Also, I know your running x2 Power for Pain, but I would rather run Superiority over that. It'll help you win command struggles, is one action cheaper, and won't interfere with your ability to recur Terror (your best event). If you have PfP, you might end up with turns where its on top of your deck since it will probably be the last even you played from the prior turns combat phase, ruining your plans. PfP is not anything I would recur above any of your other events.

 

3 of Razorwings, Strike Force, and Marksman makes me super nervous that your going to get blown out during command struggles in the early game.

Also if you are maining DE, always run x2 Syren. Every DE deck should have x3 Terrors, x3 Raids, and x2 Syrens at this point, no questions asked.

 

THE ARCHON HAS SPOKEN :lol:

 

I would agree about Syren. She is pretty amazing. Even as just a command planet holdup. I hope you do not cut PfP only because I am selfish and want to see how it runs :D

Dree2dee2 has a great point on Superiority. It is pretty incredible and can also serve to stand you Hypex unit after it travels with the warlord. 

 

I like the idea but I fear it may fall short of your expectations in the current OCTGN pre-release meta. Tell me how it goes. I am eager to hear.



#60
alpha5099

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Dree2dee2 has a great point on Superiority. It is pretty incredible and can also serve to stand you Hypex unit after it travels with the warlord. 

 

Sadly Hypex Injector only works off of Dark Eldar events.