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worlds!

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#41
Unnamable

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Somebody's got a man crush?  :wub:  I did enjoy the commentary overall but there was a good dose of (to use a nice word) propaganda. I especially liked the claim that deluxe box sets were coming every 4 months for Cthulhu!? I hope they are available to do it again next year and if not maybe Brad and Steve Horvath?

 

Compared to some of the other commentary I heard from Thrones and Star Wars, Damon and Jaffer did an absolutely amazing job. The soothing quality of Damon's voice was remarked about in the live stream chat. Yes there was some confusion between the Yithian Scout and Peaslee but those cards have incredibly similar art on them and I've made the mistake a number of times with the cards right in front of me. I have doubts that they read this forum often, but very well done guys!

Next year I'm hopeful they'll be able to have multiple channels for the different games. That way I won't have to threaten to engage in fisticuffs with 212 Thrones players for the honor of the game we love.

 

Yeah I took note of his inquiry (Invulnerable?). When he claimed that Ultima Thule being a Lost Civilization and not a Location was surely a typo I took as a silly but understandable reaction to his disappointment/embarrassment. The inclusion of the new Lost Civilization subtype of course was for flavor reasons as well as some protection from effects that target Locations. I also noticed his 'chattiness' and as a spectator found it to be an affable quality.

 

Congrats to dwavenpony and all the other players, it looked like a great tournament.

 

Also big thanks to WWDrakey for putting up links to the games.  I would've missed out on the coverage otherwise.

 

SPOILERS for those who haven't watched:

 

It's too bad Dave didn't use his Ice Shaft on Lucas Tetlow prior to replaying his Ultima Thule.  I felt like that mistake more than anything caused his deck to stall out (he had mainly 3-cost characters in his hand at the time) and let Jeremy control the tempo from that point on.  I think Dave mistakenly thought that invulnerable characters were immune to both wounding and destruction (you catch him saying that at the start of the game and he wasn't corrected).



#42
Yipe

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Having a deck composed of cards primarily from a single deluxe expansion make it to the final table - but perhaps lose due to a few errors - is a great sign for this game.

 

It shows prospective players that Call of Cthulhu has a low financial threshold to create competitive decks, but also that in-game decision making is just as important as the deck-building process.


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#43
konx

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Having a deck comprised of cards primarily from a single deluxe expansion make it to the final table - but perhaps lose due to a few errors - is a great sign for this game.

 

It shows prospective players that Call of Cthulhu has a low financial threshold to create competitive decks, but also that in-game decision making is just as important as the deck-building process.

 

I would have said exactly the opposite: a deck comprised of cards coming from a single expansion making to the final shows that the game is lacking any strategic depth and is showing that actually luck in card flipping can bring you anywhere, despite any skill level (and notice: I think that the guy with the mono-MU deck was playing rather well, except in the final where he made a couple of mistakes).

 

I mean, basically you are saying: buy an expansion box, win a tournament. Where is the strategic depth of the game? the edge given by the player both in deck building and playing? Just smash some cards together and you can win? even better, you don't even need to _choose_ which cards you have to put together, they come already in a box!

 

And if you have never played the game before? all the same, just make sure you flip the right cards ^^

 

How this is healthy, I don't know.

 

Konx



#44
Yipe

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How this is healthy, I don't know.

 

Perhaps you're right, I'm not a deep or critical thinker.

 

My point was that new players could purchase a small amount of cards and make a competitive tournament deck.  This means the organized play side of the game is still welcoming to people who don't want to make a large financial investment, at least not initially.  However, said deck still has to be played well as even 1 or 2 mistakes can cost you the game.  To me, that's what LCGs are all about, but then I've always been a big supporter of the newbie.

 

Again you're right on all points.  I really don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to top-level play, deck design, analysis, and all the number crunching.  Now if you'll excuse me, I think it's time I go back to my eternal slumber and stay off these boards for awhile.



#45
Wilbur

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Konx, you're a hateful dickhead. I'd love to think otherwise, but you've done too much to assure us that this is so. Also, you and Yipe should look up 'comprise' in a dictionary, as your misuse of the word is grating on my Yankee ears.
David flipped the right cards and almost won a world championship. He did not, however. Jeremy is obviously a monster player, and a fixture in the Cthulhu universe.
If you think the game is so terrible, by all means stop harassing us about the fact.
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#46
Yipe

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Yipe should look up 'comprise' in a dictionary, as your malapropisms are grating on my Yankee ears.

 

Fixed.  Hopefully your ears are feeling less grated  :)



#47
Wilbur

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My ears are now feeling (mostly) fine- thank you, Yipe. The Cthulhu metagame comprises a wide range of viable strategies. I congratulate Jeremy on another tough win, David on a GREAT showing, and everyone else on a solid go. David, you're now a Cthulhu veteran, so don't pull that chatty bullshit next year.
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#48
Obtuse

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I must say the only chatty bullshit of his that bothered me (that I saw) was in the finals when he was trying to ferret out information about his opponents deck/hand. That's a serious **** move.

I'll give him benefit of the doubt for being a new player though. I know in our playgroup we're pretty open with our decks (after the matches anyways) and allowing rewinds even when we're playing for prize kits. Perhaps he comes from a similar group and didn't know how to put his tournament face on.

#49
Wilbur

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[David- come on here whenever you like!]
I found his 'chat' insufferable.

#50
DrThodt

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[David- come on here whenever you like!]

 

I found his 'chat' insufferable.

 

I don't know, neither Tom or Jeremy seemed to be phased by it.



#51
DrThodt

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[David- come on here whenever you like!]

 

I found his 'chat' insufferable.

 

I don't know, neither Tom or Jeremy seemed to be phased by it.

Yeah, I fail at quotes...



#52
konx

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Konx, you're a hateful dickhead. I'd love to think otherwise, but you've done too much to assure us that this is so.

 

Ok, no problem at all ^^

 

 

Also, you and Yipe should look up 'comprise' in a dictionary, as your misuse of the word is grating on my Yankee ears.

 

The google translate definition of comprise is the following:
 

consist of; be made up of.
"the country comprises twenty states"
sinonimi: consist of, be made up of, be composed of, contain, encompass, incorporate, include, comprehend
 
What mistake did I do in the sentence? Thanks a lot for pointing it out, if no one is telling me what is wrong with my english I will never get better at it ^^

 

 

 

David flipped the right cards and almost won a world championship. He did not, however. Jeremy is obviously a monster player, and a fixture in the Cthulhu universe.
If you think the game is so terrible, by all means stop harassing us about the fact.

 

I don't think that the game is terrible. I think that the game is becoming random, which is different.

 

We are talking about worlds here, right? so, it is supposed to be the top-of-the-top of the events.

 

Let's make a sport analogy. Take the top-of-the-top of the basketball leagues: NBA. I think no one, here, is expecting that a normal guy, showing up at a game, can possibly win against, say, Le Bron. Right?

 

So, how can we make a beginner win against a pro? Very simple: we can play a different game (come on here, Le Bron, I will crush at Candy Crush LOL), we can make the game of basketball completely random (for example, we introduce a system for which the ball bounces isotropically around) or we can cripple both player up to the point where the skill doesn't count anymore (Let's say we break to both players  a leg and the hands..very cruel image, I must say).

 

This is my point. No more, no less.

 

It is very nice that the new deluxe expansions are introducing the game to new players and it is great that with buying a box you can smash together a working deck. It really is.

 

But if this deck can prove to be a competitor in the metagame, something is wrong. Because all the things that make a card game, be it CCG, LCG or whatever, so particular and exciting (deckbuilding, experience with the game and the card pool, ability to find unexpected synergies, etc...) are being removed.

 

On the particular tournament, instead, it is quite clear that the miskatonic deck was the right choice because he was facing a lot of slow-ish decks, so probably raw speed was already good enough. And again, the player was playing well.

 

Is it so wrong to have a different opinion on the status of the game and write it? I didn't offend anyone, and if I did it was not intentional and I apologize.

 

I think that me writing here proves, at least, how much I like the game, not that I don't like it.

 

Konx

EDIT:

 

I found a very nice quote on another CoC forum coming from David Boeren, which I assume is the same dboeren we have on these boards:
 

On the other hand, if you're new and playing a deck you built yourself (with a newbie's understanding of the game and a small pool) and you're going against a veteran player who knows how to build a stronger deck AND how to pilot it better then of course you'll have a tough time. That's to be expected. No, more than expected. That's what you're HOPING for. Because if it doesn't work like that then you just have a crappy game with no skill involved

 

maybe his words are better than mine, since I completely agree with him.



#53
Wilbur

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'Comprise' means 'consist of'. Not 'consist'. It's a transitive verb. The dictionary is correct.

Now, to your other point, the game is set up so that a guy can knock down three after three and win the game against Lebron. There is a play-off system, though, and he's got to beat other players. Given that he beat the top overall seed (as I understand it), he apparently wasn't steamrolling fools in the Swiss. Jeremy got there, Jeremy is very good, skill was confirmed.

Also, please don't cripple Lebron. He's with Cleveland now, so he's a good guy again.
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#54
konx

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'Comprise' means 'consist of'. Not 'consist'. It's a transitive verb. The dictionary is correct.
 

 

Ah ok, now I see it, thanks!

 

Konx



#55
Obtuse

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What are we even talking about here? Weren't the winning decks from the past couple years using a very heavy amount of cards from TKatG? I haven't seen a decklist, but I know I saw him using a few cards from outside SoK.

Also consider the sample size here. You want to talk about worlds being this premier event, but the tournament fielded 20 people. 20. Some of whom I'm sure were low on skill and low on deck firepower. I suspect if the tournament had 220 entrants or whatever thrones had you'd be more pleased with the decks that rose to the top.

The deluxe game model is great, and the game is far from "random." What is random is who and what will show at any given tournament, and with numbers so low anything can happen.

And yes please don't cripple Lebron. I'm a Cleveland sports fan and we really need this right now. Go Browns.

#56
MagnusArcanis

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Konx,

I think that you're looking at what happened completely the wrong way.

What the rest of the world sees is that David is a talented gamer, in a new game, playing a deck that is designed to cover many of his weaknesses. A plan, that doesn't always, but certainly gave him, a chance at winning.

Plus, he is a proof of concept no? That the game can be more than just about using staples...

Sure, it might seem random, and sometimes it is, but now the game is about who has the better deck for the match up and play skill.

Now, I know everyone thinks I am some sort of unbeatable juggernaut and that anything other than a win is a bad day for me. That's simply not the case. I'm stoked to of made top 4. Sure, I'm disappointed to of not one taking home the trophy like anyone else, but I didn't have a bad day...

I lost cause mainly because of the match up and my opponent not giving an inch. That happens sometimes. That's why its incredibly difficult and amazing to consistently make the cut and even more ridiculous to win a second time let alone what I've been able to do.

As for one other point. Players copying, the op deck or two of the year as you could in years past are what allow street guys beat lebron, not a completely open meta.

Ingenuity still wins the day just as it always has konx, so I don't know why you think the game is still in a worse place. When all the facts seems to point in the opposite direction.
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#57
Unnamable

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I agree that David's success at Worlds is good for the game. Even though he made what could be seen as some rookie mistakes and has not yet mastered the game's terminology he obviously did a lot right to get to the top 4. A new player beating Tom Capor in the top 4 with an Explorer deck is surprising but when you take a closer look and process the information the seemingly apparent randomness gives way to cause and effect. I wish in this case David could be given the chance to help design a Runner Up card!  ;)

 

 On the subject of 'designing cards' I wonder how much thought Jeremy has given to the design of his 2nd consecutive Champ card? Will it have a relationship to his first? Typically a player's first Champ card has been a character. Will we see a more experienced or shattered version of his 1st? Perhaps a sidekick or some accoutrements? Perhaps his nemesis? To me it seems that adding some support to a subtype, finally giving it relevance would be very tempting! I know you wouldn't want to jeopardize any possibilities by personally discussing it publicly, I just couldn't help myself! I am envious! During the commentary did Damon suggest that Jeremy's 1st Champ card came out in The Sleeper Below?!


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#58
Greynomad38

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I'm fairly sure David said something along the lines of his "experience from Magic" helping him.  All of these games have an relation to one another, an intuitiveness a player can utilize moving from one game to the next.  Therefore I don't really consider David to be an entirely new player.  New to the game itself but not new to the constructable game format.  It's also not random that Tom won three times and Jeremy twice.  They're solid players that earned that respect.  In our own local meta, kamacausey has won every single tournament (4-5) that  we've had.  Either he's a very lucky guy or we all just suck down here.  ;)



#59
dboeren

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In a small meta, a talented player can rise pretty quickly.  I'm not at Worlds so I don't have firsthand knowledge of his deck or what match-ups he had.  But what I can say is that if Worlds is similar to Gencon, there's probably only so many top level players there and the rest of the field is made up of a variety of skill levels.  With the right match ups it may only take a bit of luck for a good player to beat one of the "usual suspects" and make it into the final 4 with a shot at a higher position.  It sounds like he was wise enough to take a deck that would be a good fit for this approach, as well as being a good deck in general.

 

Is there any reason why we can't be happy that there's another good player joining the high level metagame?  I thought that's the sort of thing we wanted.  Did he luck out and place slightly higher than he "should have"?  I don't know.  To be frank, we don't have a large enough sample size to tell.  It's a card game, there is going to be some variation.  You'd really need to see the result of more games but we know enough to tell that he's at least a reasonably solid player and personally I would prefer to welcome him than chase him off.

 

So on behalf of the association of Cthulhu Davids, glad to have you :)



#60
mnBroncos

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I am not sure what this talks about are? Sure he may not have been playing for the longest time but he plays a lot of games and is a good player. I have been only playing for less then a year I am a new player but I would like to say I am very good at this game. This is a card game and a person that is smart enough and understands the game enough and has a good deck for the matchup and has little bit of luck can be able to beat anyone. It was a good worlds we were so close to reaching the 20 people mark i wanted us to be able to hit this year and hopefully some of you that really wanted to go this year come next year and we can push 30!