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Characterless Mill

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#1
kamacausey

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So I'm intrigued about the notion of a characterless mill deck and how it can win. Obviously it wins by milling but how can it hang on long enough to mill using blackmoor estate? Am I just missing something? I get that plague stone is a thing and can help but no characters at all? I dunno... Seems like it would be way too fragile. A guy at our regional went 2-2 with a characterless mill deck and then I saw somewhere on here where someone was talking about a characterless mill deck being 1st after swiss in a euro championship so obviously the deck can win but I just dont see how it can win consistently. I have an idea of what factions I would use and the cards I would use but I still keep coming to the same idea that I don't see how it could hold on long enough. Anyone want to shed some light on this mystery deck because I'm stumped....

#2
konx

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So I'm intrigued about the notion of a characterless mill deck and how it can win. Obviously it wins by milling but how can it hang on long enough to mill using blackmoor estate? Am I just missing something? I get that plague stone is a thing and can help but no characters at all? I dunno... Seems like it would be way too fragile. A guy at our regional went 2-2 with a characterless mill deck and then I saw somewhere on here where someone was talking about a characterless mill deck being 1st after swiss in a euro championship so obviously the deck can win but I just dont see how it can win consistently. I have an idea of what factions I would use and the cards I would use but I still keep coming to the same idea that I don't see how it could hold on long enough. Anyone want to shed some light on this mystery deck because I'm stumped....

 

I don't know the exact list, but if you pack together Called to the sea, stygian eye, 70 steps, negotium, plague stone, sac off, DoA, and probably something else along the same lines + terror in the dark + cold spring glen I think you have a good starting point. I don't think he was playing Blackmoor estate or yog at all.

 

If every move your opponent is doing is milling some cards I assume it can be difficult to overcome the right board combination.

 

cheers

 

Konx



#3
NuFenix

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The one from Paris used Yog, Cthulhu and Hastur. It also used Negotium.
There are assumptions of cards used, as it wasn't published.
I'm typing from a phone, but the Hastur location that mills when a success token is placed on a story, events to reduce skill to 0. I think Cavern of Flame was mentioned. Maybe even the Cthulhu support that discards a success token per turn.

It's one I'm also intrigued by, but don't feel I own enough to do it. Was also one I hoped people wouldn't ask about so when I do try it out, it's a suprise ;)

#4
Asmoridin

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This was a deck run in a tournament in Paris?  How did it end up doing?  I hadn't heard of this.

 

No characters?  That's damn crazy!



#5
Obtuse

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I've done it using just Yithian Scouts as my only characters along with as much denial as possible out of cthulhu and hastur.

Mine sort of worked, but it's a fragile thing if it doesn't get set up right. Still tinkering with it. I'm mostly invested into the deck concept as a novelty for fun thing, but it's a deck that gets scary good when it hits the right cards.

From what I hear about the Paris tourney, it was 5-0 after the swiss and then got beat by a mono shub deck that had lots of support destruction.

#6
Obtuse

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It's one I'm also intrigued by, but don't feel I own enough to do it. Was also one I hoped people wouldn't ask about so when I do try it out, it's a suprise ;)


This. If people don't know what they're up against is when this deck type gets the scariest I think. After my deck was no longer a surprise opponents figured out ways to play around it. Resourcing khopesh and other character removal cards and prioritizing 3 drop characters above all else.

So that's perhaps a glaring weakness.

#7
Mulletcheese

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It sounds really boring to play against.

#8
dynamicduo

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This is Richard and Ashley, Richard played the Characterless Mill deck in Louisville. He built the deck about 2 years ago when we first purchased cards and got into the game as a joke/prove a point that you could win a game without characters. The deck turned out to actual be good. It's been about 8 months since the last time we played the game, we don't get much time to play but we hope for that to change. The deck was tweaked on Friday night after we purchased the last couple of sets.

 

The deck is Yog, Cthulhu and Miskatonic. The deck is pure control and it's purpose is to keep the board clear. Wins 90% of games with giving up 1 story, 2 stories to Rush decks. This deck does not win quickly. Up until this event(the first time we have played against Claret Knight) the deck was undefeated. Very little answers to Claret Knight and you have to play them early.

 

We have not seen the Hastur build, the extremely nice and very funny Mr. Tuttle was telling us about it. It sounds like the deck is more built on Milling faster through combos(Yithian Scout/Y'han'thani Statue) than the opponent can win stories which to me is a different build than this.

 

I hope this helps in some way.


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#9
dboeren

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This sounds like one of those things I'd need to see/try to get a better sense of how it works.  Interesting idea though.



#10
Obtuse

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It sounds really boring to play against.


Maybe. I get the sense a lot of people feel this way about mill decks in general. They play a different game essentially.

With this particular style of deck you have to basically forget about all the number crunching and typical ways you'd seek to gain advantage in a match. It's something wildly different and thumbs its nose at normal deck building logic. That, to me, is kinda exciting and I'd have been in awe had I played one before I built one. I was in awe when I heard it was possible to build one that could actually win and got all hellbent on figuring it out.

#11
Greynomad38

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Actually, I really hated the Yithian Mill because you hardly had a chance against it no matter what you did.  With Richard's deck, you at least have a chance.  There's a timer but it's not this horrible 20+ cards three times in a row to win the game.  His deck was good but obviously, as it went 2-2, people have a chance against it.  It seemed like a different challenge rather than this boring solo game the YM was.


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#12
Greynomad38

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But, yes, the main card was Blackwood, filling up one domain with plenty of resources to begin the mill.  Necronomicon from Secrets of Arkham to take control of characters.  Ice Shaft and Plague Stone to take out characters.  Vortex of Time to manipulate opponent's card draw (I'm assuming Richard was placing characters on the bottom for the most part).  Negotium to slow down stories.  That's about all I recall.



#13
kamacausey

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This is Richard and Ashley, Richard played the Characterless Mill deck in Louisville. He built the deck about 2 years ago when we first purchased cards and got into the game as a joke/prove a point that you could win a game without characters. The deck turned out to actual be good. It's been about 8 months since the last time we played the game, we don't get much time to play but we hope for that to change. The deck was tweaked on Friday night after we purchased the last couple of sets.
 
The deck is Yog, Cthulhu and Miskatonic. The deck is pure control and it's purpose is to keep the board clear. Wins 90% of games with giving up 1 story, 2 stories to Rush decks. This deck does not win quickly. Up until this event(the first time we have played against Claret Knight) the deck was undefeated. Very little answers to Claret Knight and you have to play them early.
 
We have not seen the Hastur build, the extremely nice and very funny Mr. Tuttle was telling us about it. It sounds like the deck is more built on Milling faster through combos(Yithian Scout/Y'han'thani Statue) than the opponent can win stories which to me is a different build than this.
 
I hope this helps in some way.


Y'all care to post your list?

#14
Jhaelen

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It sounds really boring to play against.

Depends. 'Glimpse of the Void' was banned because it could be used to create a milling deck that also eliminated story phases, i.e. 'normal' gameplay. That was really boring to play against, because there was almost nothing you could do against it (if you didn't see it coming). 'Regular' milling decks, I don't mind. I actually like that they exist because it means that when trying to come up with tournament-level decks you have to take them into account and have a strategy to win against them, as well. It's a different angle of attack.

 

Actually, I really hated the Yithian Mill because you hardly had a chance against it no matter what you did.  With Richard's deck, you at least have a chance.  There's a timer but it's not this horrible 20+ cards three times in a row to win the game.  His deck was good but obviously, as it went 2-2, people have a chance against it.  It seemed like a different challenge rather than this boring solo game the YM was.

I'm in total agreement. The Yithian Mill was quite a different beast. I didn't actually hate it so much because it was a milling deck, but because it resulted in an opponent playing a kind of solitaire with an endless chain of triggers from his discard pile which is (or at least was) extremely hard to interfere with.


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#15
dboeren

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Now that "remove from play" is a thing, I'd like to see Glimpse move to Restricted with an errata to remove it from play after use.  The problem was that you could recur it and remove the story phase every turn but if that possibility is gone then I don't see a big problem with it.



#16
rekahtul

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Hi!
I'm the "characterless mill" player from Paris.
I'm from Barcelona and I'm pleasantly surprised by the reception of my deck after Paris.
I'm waiting for Tom Capor's decision before posting my decklist. I'm intrigued about what can propose one of the best players in the world :).
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#17
Obtuse

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Hi!
I'm the "characterless mill" player from Paris.
I'm from Barcelona and I'm pleasantly surprised by the reception of my deck after Paris.
I'm waiting for Tom Capor's decision before posting my decklist. I'm intrigued about what can propose one of the best players in the world :).


Kudos on a unique concept! We've had a lot of fun locally trying to build our own version of a very character light yog/cthulhu/hastur mill deck. We haven't made a consistent winner out of it yet but we keep tweaking it.

#18
MagnusArcanis

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Hi!
I'm the "characterless mill" player from Paris.
I'm from Barcelona and I'm pleasantly surprised by the reception of my deck after Paris.
I'm waiting for Tom Capor's decision before posting my decklist. I'm intrigued about what can propose one of the best players in the world :).

 

Hey Rekahtul,

 

Congrats on making a mark on the Cthulhu world. :)

 

Also, thanks for your willingness to share. :)

 

If you want we can compare notes before Sunday.... I'm all for it (we can do things via pm if you like). After we heard about your performance, it was a hot topic among our group and have had my "best guess" of what you played all lined out for quite some time now. Honestly I'm kinda curious to see how close I came to your deck list.  I'm probably going cut off the voting on Friday night at some point. So I can give myself Saturday (hopefully) to build... though odds are I won't finish it until Sunday morning moments before the tournament. haha.

 

Regardless, looking forward to this weekend, be it Mill or Dunwhich horror or some other crazy concept. Speaking of, feel free to vote and/or submit!



#19
BeldVanGuard

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I've been most entertained with how many ways there are to go about trying to make this deck

 

As has been said, there's been the long stall versions using blackmoor and tons of control / removal

 

Obtuse made a faster aggressive combo based one, and was just tons of kill and "no" cards

 

I had an old idea for this WAAY back when I first started as I used to play alot of combo mill in Magic. Seeing his deck made me revisit the idea since now I know wtf I'm doing (mostly) and have the card pool.
Since his had so much removal and no, I decided to build his version except go the pure opposite way. No removal at all and more control / manipulation. I figured between both of us tossing opposing ideas at the same core concept we'd maybe find something tournament viable after the secret was out of the bag so to speak.

 

Unfortunately we haven't had much time to collaborate as I wanted, but we went over my (tweaked 6 times now from testing) version the other day, and he did like it and it did perform better than previous, but still ran into some snags. Retweaked it today, and in theory, it's working MUCH better, and has 2 new combo plays in it I found on accident (those are my fav kinds!) so hoping during  testing tomm I'll see if it's running smoothly. Needless to say, we'd all be excited to see everyone's versions of this, if for no other reason than we can find 20 different ways to do it, and they all have their own little details and play styles



#20
Nightmare588

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I do not like the tone this conversation is heading. the conecpt of a mill deck is so antithetical to the games core concept that the thought of abusing a mechanic that avoids what makes the game fun and interesting sort of gives me chills. this game is billed by FFG as a game about investigators and mosters solving stories, murduring each other, and making weak willed people go crazy. when a player plays a mill deck, they are essencially nominating to play their own game. mill negates player interaction and cuts out all the fun for the other player. i have never, in ANY game enjoyed mill decks, either playing them or playing against them, because when i sit down to play a game, i want to play the same game as my opponent, not watch an excersize of someone manipulating a flaw in the games design and show off how smart they are...

I stopped playing Call of Cthulhu when yithian mill became promenent and only came back when everyone, under FFGs watchful direction, decided to actually start playing the game again. id really hate to leave the game i love so much just because no one wants to play the actual game anymore.
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