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Characterless Mill

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#21
dboeren

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I don't see how you're getting "everyone wants to play mill" from this conversation.  People are aware of the damage Yithians did and nobody wants a repeat of that.  Some are interested in how the deck works, there's no harm in that.  Some want to try it out, whether for novelty or to assure themselves that it's not dominant.  I'd rather have the community keep a close eye on it than to turn a blind eye.  If there is any chance that this type of deck could become dominant (which we currently have no reason to believe) then I want to know about it and have FFG know about it as soon as possible.

 

Anyway, I think we're all on the same page more or less.


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#22
NuFenix

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From a setting perspective, imagine that events are slowly unravelling that will end time, release the old ones, etc. The only way to stop them are to complete three trials where the completion of all 3 will prevent the threat and save the world.

That to me, is mill.


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#23
Nightmare588

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Deboren, if that indeed is the true purpose of this thread, then forgive me, i must have misinterpreded some things and everyone can just ignore my rant. i guess i am just way too paranoid about mill becoming dominat again. if you havent guessed, this is not the first game i have played where i have gotten into this discussion.

Nufenix. if both players were pplaying that game, id be fine with it. if call of cthulhu was asymetrical, like Netrunner, id be fine with that. its when the game changes completly based soley on the whim of your opponent that i am not fine with.

#24
BeldVanGuard

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I do not like the tone this conversation is heading. the conecpt of a mill deck is so antithetical to the games core concept that the thought of abusing a mechanic that avoids what makes the game fun and interesting sort of gives me chills. this game is billed by FFG as a game about investigators and mosters solving stories, murduring each other, and making weak willed people go crazy. when a player plays a mill deck, they are essencially nominating to play their own game. mill negates player interaction and cuts out all the fun for the other player. i have never, in ANY game enjoyed mill decks, either playing them or playing against them, because when i sit down to play a game, i want to play the same game as my opponent, not watch an excersize of someone manipulating a flaw in the games design and show off how smart they are...

I stopped playing Call of Cthulhu when yithian mill became promenent and only came back when everyone, under FFGs watchful direction, decided to actually start playing the game again. id really hate to leave the game i love so much just because no one wants to play the actual game anymore.


I was beaten to the punch, but I see Mill Decks kinda like the "Doom Token countdown" in Elder signs. The player isn't preventing you from finding out helpful information to stop the Ancient Ones from waking up. He's JUST WAKING IT UP! So ya gotta rush the stories (Elder Signs) fast and hard while he tries to trip you up with spells etc. The fact so many mill type cards exist in the game (for multiple factions) does indeed say mill is part of the game, and always has been. Sadly the Yithian design overlooked a major core game rule, and once it was found, boom. Problem.

When you first play vs a mill deck, you'll KNOW it by turn 2-3 at the latest. You just gotta switch gears asap. ALL THAT MATTERS is success tokens. You know he can't directly stop you, so you have to look at what factions he's using, try and guess what he's doing and outplay it. Swarm him, hand destroy him, zap key support cards, whatever it takes. It's impossible to stop all of them, and every deck WILL have an answer for it, even if not a good one. It's a matter of identifying what the deck is trying to do, and changing gears.

Every time a new game mechanic is introduced into the game, it provides a new way to play. A new way to look at cards and their interactions. With all the Agency protection/counter stuff now, people will be thinking of that. How can I outplay Red tape, when can I time my events to do what I need while I'm committing to a conspiracy I don't want to commit too? Mill deck is no different. It's an alternate mechanic, and new / different things are good. Obtuse and I (only speaking for us personally here) LIKE new different stuff. Anything that makes you think and change how you play and read cards, is GOOD for the game. While I've expressed my personal unhappiness with the effectiveness of Negotium vs many of the newer cards, someone a few days ago posting "Just Negoitum not being restricted changes how you think about deck building, because if you CAN'T answer it, you lose" and he was right (Sorry I forget who said this heh)

We'd just like to see mill be a viable option and not a gimmick or "something annoying to toss in and hope we hit a good card" which is how most people use the various non Yithian mill cards in game (not counting reanimator/spell decks of course)

Yithian mill was it's own special monster and not comparable to any mill deck. It went off before you could do anything. Cards did not exist to stop it, and the slow down options were sad. It was consistent, and it abused a game mechanic that wasn't supposed to exist. (For this purpose)

Even if I hit a god hand / perfect plays with my Mill deck, fastest I can mill someone out is turn 5. Again, this is GOD HAND, everything perfect, goes 100% my way. It is fragile. If you play guys I can't remove and I have removal, you're gonna jump way ahead. If I see dupes of denial cards I can't double play, you're gonna jump ahead. You have counters to my support cards? You're gonna jump ahead.
There are LOTS of things it is very weak too. We're all discussing it, because we'd like to find a way to take it from gimmick / fun to competitive.

Because it has so many weaknesses, but so many ways to go about trying to stabilize and mill, it's VERY fun to try and design. All I did was copy Obtuse' deck, take out the removal (initially) and put in way more Hastur. Now other than 4 key cards, our mill decks look nothing alike, and he's been enjoying my ideas and input on answers for things, even the ones we dropped or didn't try yet provided a fun new answer for problems. Hell man, I've nearly (and still may) put a ZOOG IN IT! Cmon now, that's tech lol

This weekend when I met Kamacausey, he showed me his Characterless mill. We didn't get to play, but it was VERY interesting seeing another persons take on it. Like Obtuse and I, he had several of the same cards. However, he used a different key mill card than either of us used, he ran a completely different faction than we did, and the tools he used in it made very good plays ours cannot do, and had answers ares do not. But that brought with it different weaknesses. 3 Totally different decks, all doing the same thing, with different strengths and weaknesses.

That's the fun of deck building games. The experimenting. Designing ways around the top cards, throwing the meta off, and bringing new things to the table.

Some of the biggest auto include cards I've been seeing lately are (depending on deck type of course)
Plague Stone, Khopesh, Descendant of Eibon, Temple of Ry'leh, Dreamlands Fanatic, Negotium etc

Wouldn't it be fun if you had a deck that wasn't scared of any of these? Mildly concerned at the best? Your opponent running these cards, knows they are powerful. Knows others use them as well. When you bring a deck (regardless of how it works) that negates the power of these cards, that is a good thing for the game. Plus it's fun heh.

That I believe is the purpose of this post. Trust me, NONE OF US want a Yithian Mill back, and none of our decks I've seen or talked about with others are anything like it. Plus, it's quite a challenge using crap jank cards to try and beat the best of the best lol

 

Next time ya guys down, ask to see mine. I actually think you'll like it
 


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#25
Wilbur

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Two points:
1) it's not a flaw in game design, but an element therein. If FFG wanted the game to recycle discard piles, they could easily have made such a rule. It's equally creepy to me when well-intentioned fans of the game attempt to legislate what that game is according to their own tastes.
2) Yithian mill this deck most certainly is not.
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#26
tdnordine

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BeldVanGuard said it better then I ever could have, so I will just emphasize a couple of his points.

1) So far the ones that I have seen tend to be fragile. My meek attempt was fun to play but easily beat by a small amount of investigation or support removal. I'm looking forward to seeing the deck list from the European tournament and Tom's take so I can see what approaches they take.

2) Trying to make one forced me to look at alot of cards that I had overloooked before, and see uses for previously useless cards. A positive outcome in my opinion.
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#27
rekahtul

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To reassure everyone, I've never won any major tournament with any version of the deck without characters :):
- Spanish National Madrid 2011: Swiss 3-2 Top8 Lost 1st round
- Spanish Regional Barcelona 2013: Swiss 4-1 2nd classified.
- Spanish National Barcelona 2013: Swiss 3-2 9th classified.
- European championship Liege 2013: Swiss 3-2 12th classified.
- Spanish Regional Barcelona 2014: Swiss 3-2 5th classified.
- Europeas Open Paris 2015: Swiss 5-0 Top 8 Lost 1st round. 5th
classified
I only won some store tournaments. But it's the only way I know to be competitive without free cards: all cards are paid and all are useful because they can always feed Blackmor:).
I have no supercombo, no cards triggered from discard pile, no yithians,just recicle relics. Surely disappoint more than one for its simplicity.
I lost many times but I enjoy it because I tried to do something different. And that is worth me. See the face of surprise and admiration of the opponent is priceless.
It's just a game :).


Edited by rekahtul, 05 March 2015 - 10:08 PM.

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#28
Obtuse

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I do not like the tone this conversation is heading. the conecpt of a mill deck is so antithetical to the games core concept that the thought of abusing a mechanic that avoids what makes the game fun and interesting sort of gives me chills. this game is billed by FFG as a game about investigators and mosters solving stories, murduring each other, and making weak willed people go crazy. when a player plays a mill deck, they are essencially nominating to play their own game. mill negates player interaction and cuts out all the fun for the other player. i have never, in ANY game enjoyed mill decks, either playing them or playing against them, because when i sit down to play a game, i want to play the same game as my opponent, not watch an excersize of someone manipulating a flaw in the games design and show off how smart they are...

I stopped playing Call of Cthulhu when yithian mill became promenent and only came back when everyone, under FFGs watchful direction, decided to actually start playing the game again. id really hate to leave the game i love so much just because no one wants to play the actual game anymore.


I'll echo the others here: the game contains cards with mill effects. You can't expect people not to play with the cards that they own, regardless of how you feel about the mill archetype. Playing casually you can always avoid playing mill but showing up to competitive events you should at least be prepared for the possibility of seeing it. It's part of the game design, even if it isn't a part of the game design that appeals to you. Also I know you're a Hastur man, and it's Hastur cards that makes this deck work!

As has been previously stated, this deck is not the Y-Train. It's nowhere near that level of broken super efficiency.

I mentioned this previously but what I love most about this particular deck is how different it is. There's too much sameness sometimes at tournaments. You were at our store championship. 5 of the 6 decks I faced that day used khopesh. I mean, c'mon! They were all constructed a little different but the idea is always the same...kill dudes and go to stories. I myself was abusing plague stone...it's not like nobody expects to see that card. What I truly appreciate is the unique decks that are way different from "the norm." Even better if you can make winners out of them.

I really hope you don't quit the game because of the possibility of viable mill decks appearing at events. You're a cool dude and I hope to keep running into you at events.
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#29
Jhaelen

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I do not like the tone this conversation is heading. the conecpt of a mill deck is so antithetical to the games core concept that the thought of abusing a mechanic that avoids what makes the game fun and interesting sort of gives me chills. this game is billed by FFG as a game about investigators and mosters solving stories, murduring each other, and making weak willed people go crazy. when a player plays a mill deck, they are essencially nominating to play their own game. mill negates player interaction and cuts out all the fun for the other player. i have never, in ANY game enjoyed mill decks, either playing them or playing against them, because when i sit down to play a game, i want to play the same game as my opponent, not watch an excersize of someone manipulating a flaw in the games design and show off how smart they are...

I stopped playing Call of Cthulhu when yithian mill became promenent and only came back when everyone, under FFGs watchful direction, decided to actually start playing the game again. id really hate to leave the game i love so much just because no one wants to play the actual game anymore.

Personally, I feel there's a vast difference between the Yithian Mill and any other kind of mill deck that came before it. Not all mill decks negate player interaction. Playing against the Yithian variant was no fun because of cascading discard pile triggers - them's the problem, not the milling.

 

Milling is just an alternative victory condition; no more, no less. I generally like games that offer multiple paths to victory. Netrunner has this (win by Agendas or by killing the Runner), Warhammer 40k: Conquest has it (win by conquering planets or killing the Commander). For CoC it makes deck-building a bit more challenging, because it's something you have to take into account.


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#30
dboeren

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L5R has four different win conditions:

  Military (destroy all enemy provinces)

  Honor (get your honor above a certain threshold)

  Dishonor (get the other guy's honor below a certain threshold)

  Enlightenment (get all five elemental rings into play)

 

In the past, there have sometimes also been cards that add specific alternate win conditions while they are in play.



#31
LordTeacup

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Arrdet has a characterless mill deck he's been working on however a clarification of a card effect that NuFenix has presented will dent his deck a little.  Which is good for me as I have to play against it.  I try to build decks that have a bullet for each of the strategies an opponent has but of course this can sometimes break the synergy I'm trying to create in the deck.  To many bullets and a deck can become clogged.

 

However, working against a solid mill deck is a challenge and I relish it, as I do with any well thought out control game.  


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#32
NuFenix

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Once Dreamlands is available in the UK, I will build one for you to play against LordTeaCup ;)


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#33
LordTeacup

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I have a brace of sinister compilations, each of an eldritch nature, with which I have conspired to unleash the dark and terrible forces of the shadow and void against you NuFenix.


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#34
rekahtul

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Hi,

This is the deck that I play in Paris:

 

3x Negotium Perambulans in Tenebris

3x Sacrificial Offerings

2x Ritual of Bellephar

2x Called to the Sea

2x Apeirophobia

2x Power Drain

1x Beneath the Mire

2x Curse of the Stone

2x Dragged into the Deep

2x The Sleeper Awakens!

2x Deep One Assault

2x Pushed into the Beyond

1x Snow Graves

3x Flooded Vault

3x •The Seventy Steps, Of Light Slumber

2x •The Cavern of Flame, Gateway to the Dreamlands

3x •Stygian Eye, It Seduces with Promises of Power

2x •Cold Spring Glen, Unsettlingly Desolate

2x Artist's Colony

1x •The Supernal Prism, Holy Shard

3x •The Plague Stone, Sweet Release

3x Blackmoor Estate

2x •Rite of the Silver Gate, Rending Space-Time

Total 50

The main objective of the deck is to hold the first three turns, without the opponent has won any story. With 3-2-1 or 1-4-1 domains, you can make the first reset with Plague Stone or The Sleeper. If I have the 70 steps and Negotium in play after the first cleaning is almost won game because the opponent will have spent enough ammo, the few 3-cost characters he can draw will come exhausted and have time for kill 3-chars and /or mill until the time runs out.
It is a deck where time is on your side.
The greatest danger: A Claret in turn 2 in table and Shub. Regarding Claret, if it comes out he can win the game alone at 7 turns (50- (10 + 14) = 26 cards to discard). The Stygian eye can help, but discard 26 cards in 7 turns is not easy :( .

The deck’s core would divide into three groups of cards:

1. Initial brakes: Negotium, Steps, Called to the sea and Cavern.
2. Reset: Plague stone, Sleeper Awakens.
3. Discard: Blackmore, Cold Spring, Bellephar, Curse of the stone

The remaining cards only help. It is a deck that needs some flexibility: disrupts, discard hand, draw cards, etc.


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#35
BeldVanGuard

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Again I must say, it's interesting to see how similar some of the decks are, and yet how different they are

 

Will make a version of this and play it a few times and then swap it with mine, and see if I can cobble together some new combos / tricks with it

 

Thanks sir!



#36
NuFenix

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Now that "remove from play" is a thing, I'd like to see Glimpse move to Restricted with an errata to remove it from play after use.  The problem was that you could recur it and remove the story phase every turn but if that possibility is gone then I don't see a big problem with it.

 

Just re-reading the thread, and it's like dboeren can predict the future! Care to tell me the winning lottery numbers ;)



#37
dboeren

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Your lucky numbers are 10 17 28 and 45.  I left off the other two because I didn't foresee them adding "draw a card" to Glimpse :)



#38
NuFenix

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Mild resurrection, but I was wondering, whilst Negotium seems to be the go to conspiracy, due to Seventy Steps being a common choice for the mill decks, what about Unending Festivities instead?

 

If Dark Quagmire is also used, then it will take longer for the story to be won and thus keep characters exhausted.



#39
tdnordine

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If you go with Unending Festivities, you will need to put effort into limiting their ability to win Arcane to keep their characters exhausted.

 

It makes things like Dreams in Limbo more useful, although I don't know that a characterless mill that relies on that will be too successful.



#40
Maruxv

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Hi guys.

 

I was just studying a deck like this inspired by the unbanning of glimpse of the void, and i came up with this deck:

 

 

2x The Stone on the Peak (Dunwich Denizens)
3x Flooded Vault (Terror in Venice)
1x Dark Sarcophagus (Never Night)
2x Frozen Time (The Key and the Gate)
3x De Vermis Mysteriis (The Key and the Gate)
1x Prism of Many Views (The Twilight Beckons)
3x Artists Colony (Kingsport Dreams)
3x The Seven Hundred Steps (In Memory of Day)
3x The Plague Stone (Terror in Venice)
1x The Guzheng (Curse of the Jade Emperor)
1x Cold Spring Glen (Dunwich Denizens)
1x Rite of the Silver Gate (The Key and the Gate)
1x The Silver Key (Search for the Silver Key)
1x Will of Azathoth (The Key and the Gate)
1x Snow Graves (At the Mountains of Madness)
1x The Cavern of Flame (In the Dread of Night)

Event: (16)
3x Thunder in the East (Kingsport Dreams)
3x The Sleeper Awakens! (Spawn of Madness)
2x Called to the Sea (Kingsport Dreams)
3x Sacrificial Offerings (Core Set)
3x Journey to the Other Side (Core Set)
2x Writhing Wall (Secrets of Arkham)
3x Glimpse of the Void (Spawn Of Madness) R

Conspiracy: (3)
3x Negotium Perambulans in Tenebris (Dunwich Denizens)

 

the idea is the same : slow down at the beginning, keep clearing the board, mill the opponent slowly. I think this version is even slower but more stable when you get into control situation.

 

i went 2-2 into today italian regional winning vs mono MU explorers and Hast - Cthulhu cultist-temple of rlyeh,then losing to a MU-Cthulhu cultist deck and a very heartbreaking last match at last card vs mono Yog mill.

 

The deck doesnt have a very hard mill potential, it is more about getting into control position then milling slowly and gettng card advantage with artist's colonies then gettin your cards back with the stone peak.

 

I chose also dark sarcophagus instead of blackmore estate beacuse

1. it isnt a location so i can tutor with flooded vault

2. it is a relic, so it is immune to magnetic spike

3. if it is destroyed, i get it back into deck

4. i usually only use it to end matches quicker, so i don't care about giving more cards to opponent.

 

 

i Know it isnt a very funny deck to play against, but it is very interesting to play,every turn you have to think really well about your plan, and you have no obvious decisions.


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