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Fighters,Fighters,Fighters..Whats working/What isn't

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#41
Mike1977

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I don't know it sort of feels like you are perpetuating Jedi as the "best" deck. If all the SC's are being won with Jedi and most people are running mono Jedi does that make it the "best". Not necessarily. If you really feel like you are held hostage to playing one deck type then you are neglecting a lot of other valid deck types that can be dangerous at a tournament setting. It's the same group think that locked people into Sith Control for so long.

 

So if Jedi is currently not the best deck from a LS perspective, then what is?

 

You don't need to answer, its more of a rhetorical question.

 

Very few people here would be ready to put themselves out on a limb and say that "a deck" is better then Jedi, and actually list it outright. Instead you get allot of: "Well this deck is good", "this deck is pretty solid", "I'm at no disadvantage with this deck". On the other hand "I" have no issue believing that Mono Jedi is tried tested and true, and that it sits at the top of the pyramid. I think that those that disagree or want to disagree with this statement seem to think that using the term "best deck" means unbeatable. Which is not what I am saying. 

 

With every new force pack the potential is there to shake things up. Did the first new force pack? No! There really wasn't anything there that would make me believe that the LS meta would shift in a different direction. I'd even go as far and say that with the new S&V objective, the mono Jedi players are less likely to shy away from this type of deck. Snoova did the same thing when the card arrived. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that If you play a dual affiliation deck Snoova becomes so much better, or if you play vehicles that The Grand Heist gets better. If you gain a card on the table and your opponent loses a card on the table, its such a great deal right now. Mono Jedi avoids the worst of that with the exception of a hand full of neutral units, and the odd mCrow here and there.

 

Did the second? There are several cards in the second that are good, but are they good enough to shift the LS meta? That RA objective has me thinking, but I'm not sure. Going vehicles and running into S&V would definitely suck.



#42
doctormungmung

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So if Jedi is currently not the best deck from a LS perspective, then what is?

 

You don't need to answer, its more of a rhetorical question.

 

Very few people here would be ready to put themselves out on a limb and say that "a deck" is better then Jedi, and actually list it outright. Instead you get allot of: "Well this deck is good", "this deck is pretty solid", "I'm at no disadvantage with this deck". On the other hand "I" have no issue believing that Mono Jedi is tried tested and true, and that it sits at the top of the pyramid. I think that those that disagree or want to disagree with this statement seem to think that using the term "best deck" means unbeatable. Which is not what I am saying. 

 

With every new force pack the potential is there to shake things up. Did the first new force pack? No! There really wasn't anything there that would make me believe that the LS meta would shift in a different direction. I'd even go as far and say that with the new S&V objective, the mono Jedi players are less likely to shy away from this type of deck. Snoova did the same thing when the card arrived. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that If you play a dual affiliation deck Snoova becomes so much better, or if you play vehicles that The Grand Heist gets better. If you gain a card on the table and your opponent loses a card on the table, its such a great deal right now. Mono Jedi avoids the worst of that with the exception of a hand full of neutral units, and the odd mCrow here and there.

 

Did the second? There are several cards in the second that are good, but are they good enough to shift the LS meta? That RA objective has me thinking, but I'm not sure. Going vehicles and running into S&V would definitely suck.

 

I'd like to disagree that Ready For Takeoff didn't shake up the meta.  At the store championship I went to a few weeks ago, there were several Rebel vehicle decks that did very well.  For three people, each deck only dropped a single game, and two of those were in elimination rounds.  That was just as good as the Jedi decks that were at the tournament, if not better.  The only difference is that the lackluster draws for the Rebels happened in elimination rounds, vs the lackluster draws for the Jedi during the swiss portion.



#43
Scottie

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You're setting up an untenable criteria. No deck needs to be better then Jedi to be just as viable as Jedi. You're seemingly so quick to have to have something at the peak that you are overlooking the possible concept that multiple variations of decks exist in that same stratus. One does not have to be better then the other, it's not an absolute.

That is quite litterally what people are saying when then say they are at no disadvantage taking a non-Mono Jedi deck to events currently. Outside of corner case examples of people playing with a different agenda then just win the event (such as your Ewok example) a player taking a deck to an event is that player putting thier money where thier mouth is and saying "this deck gives me the best chance in this event".

I will say quite clearly that currently, and through the entire season, there are more then the general cookie cutter Jedi builds equally as viable in event play. Many of those deck also do utilize some or even a majority of Jedi objectives but they are vastly different then what you and some other vocal posters believe to be the only option worth playing.

I have to ask have you actually played with or against the Grand Heist? Your previous posts in the other thread seemed to say you had not.
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#44
Mike1977

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I'd like to disagree that Ready For Takeoff didn't shake up the meta.  At the store championship I went to a few weeks ago, there were several Rebel vehicle decks that did very well.  For three people, each deck only dropped a single game, and two of those were in elimination rounds.  That was just as good as the Jedi decks that were at the tournament, if not better.  The only difference is that the lackluster draws for the Rebels happened in elimination rounds, vs the lackluster draws for the Jedi during the swiss portion.

 

I love Rogue Squadron Assault, I put it into a deck blindly and started playing with it.

 

While the unit seems like a great deal, the whole objective set lacks force icons. During games you can really feel it too.



#45
pantsyg

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So if Jedi is currently not the best deck from a LS perspective, then what is?

 

You don't need to answer, its more of a rhetorical question.

 

Very few people here would be ready to put themselves out on a limb and say that "a deck" is better then Jedi, and actually list it outright. Instead you get allot of: "Well this deck is good", "this deck is pretty solid", "I'm at no disadvantage with this deck". On the other hand "I" have no issue believing that Mono Jedi is tried tested and true, and that it sits at the top of the pyramid. I think that those that disagree or want to disagree with this statement seem to think that using the term "best deck" means unbeatable. Which is not what I am saying. 

 

With every new force pack the potential is there to shake things up. Did the first new force pack? No! There really wasn't anything there that would make me believe that the LS meta would shift in a different direction. I'd even go as far and say that with the new S&V objective, the mono Jedi players are less likely to shy away from this type of deck. Snoova did the same thing when the card arrived. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that If you play a dual affiliation deck Snoova becomes so much better, or if you play vehicles that The Grand Heist gets better. If you gain a card on the table and your opponent loses a card on the table, its such a great deal right now. Mono Jedi avoids the worst of that with the exception of a hand full of neutral units, and the odd mCrow here and there.

 

Did the second? There are several cards in the second that are good, but are they good enough to shift the LS meta? That RA objective has me thinking, but I'm not sure. Going vehicles and running into S&V would definitely suck.

 

I get what you're saying, but I also wonder if Jedi are over-represented as tournament winners (for LS at least) precisely because players default to these proven strong decks, rather than pushing to find other decks that may be equally or more consistent winners. IMO the same thing happened in the Jedi Gamor (post-errata) meta, where other strong decks existed, but players flocked to Gamor once sites started to publish it because it was "proven" by strong players. See the oft-quoted example of Mick Cipra's LS worlds deck last year.

 

Also, I feel that the saying "Jedi is the best deck" has come to be over-used here. There are many versions of Jedi decks, and several Jedi sets (notably MTFBWY and Jubbas) slot into many multi-affiliation builds that are just as strong as mono-Jedi. 

 

And to go "out on a limb," for me, 2x Trust Me, 2x False Report, 2x Falcon, 2x Deity, Gamor, Renegade Squadron has just as good a winrate as any Jedi deck I've built. 


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#46
doctormungmung

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I love Rogue Squadron Assault, I put it into a deck blindly and started playing with it.

 

While the unit seems like a great deal, the whole objective set lacks force icons. During games you can really feel it too.

 

Except in the builds I've seen, winning edge isn't all that important.  With the swarm mentality, there is always a bit of damage that comes through.  And if the killer combo of Rogue Squadron X-Wing and Hobbie hit the table, there is at least one damage getting through a round, if not two, and is repeatable until your opponent draws into their counters, which aren't all that plentiful.  And a lot of times, you don't need to use objective damage to finish off the objectives when there are Rebel Assaults available.   It's not really a rush deck, but more of just consistent damage over time.  At least in my experience.



#47
brimmstorm

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It has no icons on the cards you want to play. At two cost and all black icons their won't be to many times that you don't play the x-wing. It's not always the total edge icon count that matters but which cards you plan on edging.


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#48
Scottie

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Effective edge count is an often overlooked concept. I have certainly not found that set diminishing my ability to win edge battles in comparison to all but the edge battle specific available sets.

#49
Mike1977

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I get what you're saying, but I also wonder if Jedi are over-represented as tournament winners (for LS at least) precisely because players default to these proven strong decks, rather than pushing to find other decks that may be equally or more consistent winners. IMO the same thing happened in the Jedi Gamor (post-errata) meta, where other strong decks existed, but players flocked to Gamor once sites started to publish it because it was "proven" by strong players. See the oft-quoted example of Mick Cipra's LS worlds deck last year.

 

Also, I feel that the saying "Jedi is the best deck" has come to be over-used here. There are many versions of Jedi decks, and several Jedi sets (notably MTFBWY and Jubbas) slot into many multi-affiliation builds that are just as strong as mono-Jedi. 

 

And to go "out on a limb," for me, 2x Trust Me, 2x False Report, 2x Falcon, 2x Deity, Gamor, Renegade Squadron has just as good a winrate as any Jedi deck I've built. 

 

Oh for sure, if you have a proven deck, and it gets out, its everywhere. I wouldn't expect anything less.

 

Mick Cipra's was somewhat of an exception. If you back up to that cardpool, he had the strongest deck the LS could make. The only problem is no one else thought it up. You can blame that on all kinds of different reasons, but it is what it is. The man was an innovator, and he has my praise.

 

You're setting up an untenable criteria. No deck needs to be better then Jedi to be just as viable as Jedi. You're seemingly so quick to have to have something at the peak that you are overlooking the possible concept that multiple variations of decks exist in that same stratus. One does not have to be better then the other, it's not an absolute.

That is quite litterally what people are saying when then say they are at no disadvantage taking a non-Mono Jedi deck to events currently. Outside of corner case examples of people playing with a different agenda then just win the event (such as your Ewok example) a player taking a deck to an event is that player putting thier money where thier mouth is and saying "this deck gives me the best chance in this event".

I will say quite clearly that currently, and through the entire season, there are more then the general cookie cutter Jedi builds equally as viable in event play. Many of those deck also do utilize some or even a majority of Jedi objectives but they are vastly different then what you and some other vocal posters believe to be the only option worth playing.

I have to ask have you actually played with or against the Grand Heist? Your previous posts in the other thread seemed to say you had not.

 

Have you ever considered making a post here: http://www.cardgamed...ine-talkingbut/

 

I've unfortunately have now had the opportunity to play a few games against S&V as vehicles, and the results weren't good for me. :(



#50
Mike1977

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Except in the builds I've seen, winning edge isn't all that important.  With the swarm mentality, there is always a bit of damage that comes through.  And if the killer combo of Rogue Squadron X-Wing and Hobbie hit the table, there is at least one damage getting through a round, if not two, and is repeatable until your opponent draws into their counters, which aren't all that plentiful.  And a lot of times, you don't need to use objective damage to finish off the objectives when there are Rebel Assaults available.   It's not really a rush deck, but more of just consistent damage over time.  At least in my experience.

 

 

Have you had a chance to test it against Heist?



#51
Scottie

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And your point with that link was what?

#52
brimmstorm

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Except in the builds I've seen, winning edge isn't all that important. With the swarm mentality, there is always a bit of damage that comes through. And if the killer combo of Rogue Squadron X-Wing and Hobbie hit the table, there is at least one damage getting through a round, if not two, and is repeatable until your opponent draws into their counters, which aren't all that plentiful. And a lot of times, you don't need to use objective damage to finish off the objectives when there are Rebel Assaults available. It's not really a rush deck, but more of just consistent damage over time. At least in my experience.


Cheap ships with decent hp and black icons. Things that Rebel ships having going for them that TIEs do not.

I don't see one pod with three anti-vechicle cards being the death of vehicle decks. It's like saying character decks are not playable because of the removal Sith has.

It's about match ups and drawing your cards that are good in that specific match up.

#53
Mike1977

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And your point with that link was what?

 

The glass was half full in that thread... :P



#54
BobaFett

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I love Rogue Squadron Assault, I put it into a deck blindly and started playing with it.
 
While the unit seems like a great deal, the whole objective set lacks force icons. During games you can really feel it too.


Maybe it's the decks your building but the lack of force icons on cards (rogue squadron x wing) you want to play every time you draw them hasn't effected me at all nor have I even been able to notice the lost icons.

While a lot of the core vehicle sets are fairly low on force count, the rebel sets out of hoth, and later are all coming with high edge counts.

Other then forward recon and this set, there hasn't been a rebel set with less then 8 edge count since the core set. Many have 9, some even 10, and then there's sets like hoth Luke with 10 that slots in very well into fighter decks. None of this is even taking into account things like hoth ops edge bonus, heroes resolve.

I've found rebel vehicle decks to be as nearly as good or equal to many of the Jedi decks going around.

#55
Mike1977

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Maybe it's the decks your building but the lack of force icons on cards (rogue squadron x wing) you want to play every time you draw them hasn't effected me at all nor have I even been able to notice the lost icons.

While a lot of the core vehicle sets are fairly low on force count, the rebel sets out of hoth, and later are all coming with high edge counts.

Other then forward recon and this set, there hasn't been a rebel set with less then 8 edge count since the core set. Many have 9, some even 10, and then there's sets like hoth Luke with 10 that slots in very well into fighter decks. None of this is even taking into account things like hoth ops edge bonus, heroes resolve.

I've found rebel vehicle decks to be as nearly as good or equal to many of the Jedi decks going around.

 

 I think its more the force I feel it lacks... allot of times a final attack isn't possible and I find myself not being able to commit the unit, since it has no icons.

 

And I guess at that point the force isn't that important.

 

EDIT: The reality is I probably shouldn't commit that unit even if it did. lol



#56
BobaFett

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Yeah, I will say, with my rebel decks, I don't even bother with the force. Rebels have so much damage they can win pretty easily with the dial at 4-6 even when not taking the force. Every once in a while if I have something like a tauntan free (when not playing sith), or a cheap snow speeder, I'll grab the force, but %90 of the time I ignore it.

And actually now with desperation, maybe you want the dial to tick up faster and give them less time to prepare for it??

#57
pantsyg

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Mick Cipra's was somewhat of an exception. If you back up to that cardpool, he had the strongest deck the LS could make. The only problem is no one else thought it up. You can blame that on all kinds of different reasons, but it is what it is. The man was an innovator, and he has my praise.


See, I don't see that as an exception. Innovation will generally produce the best decks, and I don't think that's less true now than then; following groupthink for fear of playing something "weaker" leads to the appearance of a a stale meta where everyone plays the same decks.
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#58
tierdal

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So if Jedi is currently not the best deck from a LS perspective, then what is?

 

You don't need to answer, its more of a rhetorical question.

 

Very few people here would be ready to put themselves out on a limb and say that "a deck" is better then Jedi, and actually list it outright. Instead you get allot of: "Well this deck is good", "this deck is pretty solid", "I'm at no disadvantage with this deck". On the other hand "I" have no issue believing that Mono Jedi is tried tested and true, and that it sits at the top of the pyramid. I think that those that disagree or want to disagree with this statement seem to think that using the term "best deck" means unbeatable. Which is not what I am saying. 

 

With every new force pack the potential is there to shake things up. Did the first new force pack? No! There really wasn't anything there that would make me believe that the LS meta would shift in a different direction. I'd even go as far and say that with the new S&V objective, the mono Jedi players are less likely to shy away from this type of deck. Snoova did the same thing when the card arrived. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that If you play a dual affiliation deck Snoova becomes so much better, or if you play vehicles that The Grand Heist gets better. If you gain a card on the table and your opponent loses a card on the table, its such a great deal right now. Mono Jedi avoids the worst of that with the exception of a hand full of neutral units, and the odd mCrow here and there.

 

Did the second? There are several cards in the second that are good, but are they good enough to shift the LS meta? That RA objective has me thinking, but I'm not sure. Going vehicles and running into S&V would definitely suck.

 

 

The people who don't realize Jedi is not just the best - but at a HUGE advantage over anthing the DS can field right now have their heads buried in the sand. Every SC I've been to, for every game that counted in a top cut, when the player got to choose sides...what did they choose? Jedi. Every, dang, time. I know scottie disagrees with me on this and he was the TO but I know for CERTAIN that of the 3 SC's I went to, in the finals, the winner picked their jedi deck (and yes anything with jubba./spider/yoda is a jedi deck ... Luke just happens to be wearing a home one costume :P)

 

I think Rebels is VERY VERY strong right now. It has some nice edge, good pilots, NICE ships, good black bombs AND deperation at 8-12 means if you havn't won by 8 you have a REALLY good chance of winning past that. Downside? Decks can actually actively counter it with things like ship stealing and Snoova (if you splash luke).

 

 

Lets talk about what counters Jedi?

 

.... jedi drawing poorly? And early executor and vader...maybe?

 

 

Seriously someone tell me a TRUE counter to knobby white spider... what is it? It doesn't exist that card is literally broken. Its icons should be edge enabled...or it should have less health ... or it shouldnt have guns. The thing literally WINS games on its own. Then throw in jubbas and a FREE doublestrike?? What the heck at that pod.

 

Can it be beaten? Sure. Is it balanced? No way... i feel like cheese every time i use it. 

 

Then you stack Rahn, Luke, and undercosted Yoda(s) and it just becomes insane.

 

You lose one edge battle against a yoda with spiders and speeders on the board and suddenly your entire board is gone for the game burried under tactics icons.

 

I honestly wouldn't mind this nonsense if their was a counter. Ties seem to be getting there... it will be interesting. But Jedi will always be consistently brutal without some kind of erata to that bloody spider. 



#59
tierdal

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You're setting up an untenable criteria. No deck needs to be better then Jedi to be just as viable as Jedi. You're seemingly so quick to have to have something at the peak that you are overlooking the possible concept that multiple variations of decks exist in that same stratus. One does not have to be better then the other, it's not an absolute.

That is quite litterally what people are saying when then say they are at no disadvantage taking a non-Mono Jedi deck to events currently. Outside of corner case examples of people playing with a different agenda then just win the event (such as your Ewok example) a player taking a deck to an event is that player putting thier money where thier mouth is and saying "this deck gives me the best chance in this event".

I will say quite clearly that currently, and through the entire season, there are more then the general cookie cutter Jedi builds equally as viable in event play. Many of those deck also do utilize some or even a majority of Jedi objectives but they are vastly different then what you and some other vocal posters believe to be the only option worth playing.

I have to ask have you actually played with or against the Grand Heist? Your previous posts in the other thread seemed to say you had not.

 

I willl say the Jersey meta has brought some really interest decks our that are not cookie cutter. But they all used Jubba. All of them.

 

And honestly. Tommy is a GREAT player and his deck is good...but its not as consistent as a main Jedi deck. I think alot of the reason it did so well is people were not prepared to play against it. (no offensive meant to anyone this is 100% a compliment as a great player made a really cool deck that works well and was unexpected which is a great strategy). But this discussion (as it has evolved into "Jedi BS" discussion) is about Jedi and their pods impact on the game at the moment and that impact is felt like crazy.

 

Like literally every card in the game has a downside except that freaking spider. And it has WON me more games that it has lost... and i still hate it. Its complete cheese inside a set thats already amazing. 5 health, no edge enabled icons??? Its even more protected as an enhancement as board wipes don't hit it. That thing needs an errata.



#60
Wrath87

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So if Jedi is currently not the best deck from a LS perspective, then what is?
 
Very few people here would be ready to put themselves out on a limb and say that "a deck" is better then Jedi, and actually list it outright.


2 x chewi
2 x against all odds
2 x trust me
2 x crix
2 x falcon
1 x sluthes

This deck is 100% tier 1 for me and equal with jedi. Jedi are strong yes but the other light side top decks are not any weaker. I think its more a fact of people not sure how to play against the new jedi. Like when sluthes came in. Nothing came out that completely destroyed them, people just learnt how to play against them.

Jedi hardly run any event cancels anymore so punish them for it as much as you can. Scum have heaps of tactics and enhancement removal plus corrupt official so I'm finding them a great answer for jedi at the moment.

I ran this deck in a store champs that I won and it didn't lose a game:
2 x zekka
2 x masterful manipulation
2 x counsel
2 x vader
2 x emperor
1 x prophetess

You just need to practice and know how the jedi work so you know what they can and can't do. The best way I find to working out how a deck works is you get a friend and play the same decks. Play through twice (2 light and 2 dark each) and talk about what went right and wrong, where the turning points in the game were, where the match could have gone either way and what was each side missing that would have helped them.