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Rules tweaks to tame Tactics?

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#61
tierdal

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Because it seems I have missed on a ton of tips, what DS builds (or cores, as I dislike to copy and paste decks) are faring well against Jedi?

We had a small tournament two weeks ago and I think I lost every match as DS. Granted, for some weird reason I was playing Sith, when I'm much more comfortable playing Navy or Scum.

 

I've had success with TIE rush, Walker super shields and Scum capturing mains from deck. But dunno what else is working. 

 

Consistantly? Nothing. 

 

Zekka Bomb decks can sometimes stall there way to victory depending on how/when mains and creature recursion come out - and if they draw what they need when they need it.

 

Mono Sith can do well if executor/Vader hit the table and chokes come out at the right time.

 

But there is no build that ive seen posted (and ive been asking for awhile) that puts up a consistent fight vs jedi. If both decks draw perfectly Jedi will win everytime. It just has so many ways to push blast through and control the board there is very little you can do to stop it.



#62
BobaFett

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And after all that they have done 2-3 damage tops, so you slow the game down. Make sure his key units can't strike. I've won countless games against Jedi with force stasis alone. Using it on a like with enhancements completely shuts down their damage output. And once you get Vader or palpatine out your either pinging damage with Vader every time you use your events (such are generally also removing other targets) or with palpatine, you can not only shut down their board, but also recur tour force stasis, and other powerful events. Imagine pulling a force stasis out over and over again. There is just nothing they can do really.

If sith get behind on board presence and show Jedi to drop too many mains, then sure they are going to have problems, but frankly, for Jedi to be able to do that, they need to be drawing well themselves.

We get that Jedi is very strong right now, and is likely the best faction in the game at the moment. So was Sith for a long time and people played around them too.

#63
tierdal

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And after all that they have done 2-3 damage tops, so you slow the game down. Make sure his key units can't strike. I've won countless games against Jedi with force stasis alone. Using it on a like with enhancements completely shuts down their damage output. And once you get Vader or palpatine out your either pinging damage with Vader every time you use your events (such are generally also removing other targets) or with palpatine, you can not only shut down their board, but also recur tour force stasis, and other powerful events. Imagine pulling a force stasis out over and over again. There is just nothing they can do really.

If sith get behind on board presence and show Jedi to drop too many mains, then sure they are going to have problems, but frankly, for Jedi to be able to do that, they need to be drawing well themselves.

We get that Jedi is very strong right now, and is likely the best faction in the game at the moment. So was Sith for a long time and people played around them too.

 

I think the key difference is you could play around it by switching factions and making meta calls with speeders or smugglers later on. There is no faction that can play around Jedi right now (it should be Navy imho , but it just isnt quite there yet).

 

If you agree they are the strongest then we are in agreement.

 

And I really like force stasis. It got me top 4 in the biggest store champ on the east coast. I like that set quite a bit.



#64
BobaFett

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I took 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the 3 store champs I played in and my Sith out won my Jedi in 2 of the 3. The 3rd, I took scum instead of Sith, and it failed miserably.

#65
tierdal

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Scum is just too slow atm =/ You arn't going to be holding the force much if ever so galactic scum become less great , and you need to survive 12 turns which even with hunters and jabbas palace becomes pretty difficult.

 

I've really wanted to try using devastator for defense upgrade - but its just such a poor defensive unit =/



#66
pantsyg

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I took 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the 3 store champs I played in and my Sith out won my Jedi in 2 of the 3. The 3rd, I took scum instead of Sith, and it failed miserably.

 

What sort of Scum did you bring, Boba? Admittedly I haven't made any events this year, but locally Scum have done just as well as Sith for me and I was wondering how that translated into more competitive environments. 

 

I do have to say that my Sith wins often feel easier, since their removal and denial options are so strong against the Jedi build-a-board strategies. 



#67
Majestaat

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I've had a lot of success with various mono sith builds. Heart of the empire has been very strong for me. Force stasis and the defense fleets are great against Jedi decks.

Force Stasis has always been amazing, and I can see the Defense Fleet being super threatening. LS must absolutely win edge or they are likely losing one of their main units.

 

Any comments on There Is No Escape? Can it actually be played to good effect regularly or is it often just edge fodder due to the cost and timing restriction? Always found it to be the most intriguing card in the set, but in core days Sith usually was in a pretty good position and there was no point for the reset. How about now? 



#68
tierdal

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Force Statis has always been amazing, and I can see the Defense Fleet being super threatening. LS must absolutely win edge or they are likely losing one of their main units.

 

Any comments on There Is No Escape? Can it actually be played to good effect regularly or is it often just edge fodder due to the cost and timing restriction? Always found it to be the most intriguing card in the set, but in core days Sith usually was in a pretty good position and there was no point for the reset. How about now? 

I waited for it to be good but never got it at the time i needed it.



#69
pantsyg

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Force Statis has always been amazing, and I can see the Defense Fleet being super threatening. LS must absolutely win edge or they are likely losing one of their main units.

 

Any comments on There Is No Escape? Can it actually be played to good effect regularly or is it often just edge fodder due to the cost and timing restriction? Always found it to be the most intriguing card in the set, but in core days Sith usually was in a pretty good position and there was no point for the reset. How about now? 

 

I've played with the set quite a bit recently, and I could never find the right time to play it. Obviously the best time to play it is in their Force Phase, but holding 4 resources to play what I see as a comeback card in their turn, rather than deploying units in mine, never seems like a good deal. It can't even be used to keep the Force before a struggle you're about to lose, as the action window is after the struggle. 

 

I really like every other card in the set though. The chud is meh but serviceable, resources are good, Stasis is amazing, and the Defense Fleet is extra good with Black Two around. The set also pairs well with Stele, since Hand and Stasis perform similar functions and both include solid blockers with shielding. I actually really like the objective as well; the starting resources are nice, and with 1 (or especially 2) you can feel safer having Web out, which increases the efficiency of events ridiculously. Targeting Heart also makes the LS waste lots of unopposed they would otherwise get from spreading attacks around, so the "easier" win condition isn't really as big a deal I've found.

 

Recently I've been abandoning the conventional wisdom and playing Web when I get the chance, the event discount is just so strong. 



#70
tierdal

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I've played with the set quite a bit recently, and I could never find the right time to play it. Obviously the best time to play it is in their Force Phase, but holding 4 resources to play what I see as a comeback card in their turn, rather than deploying units in mine, never seems like a good deal. It can't even be used to keep the Force before a struggle you're about to lose, as the action window is after the struggle. 

 

I really like every other card in the set though. The chud is meh but serviceable, resources are good, Stasis is amazing, and the Defense Fleet is extra good with Black Two around. The set also pairs well with Stele, since Hand and Stasis perform similar functions and both include solid blockers with shielding. I actually really like the objective as well; the starting resources are nice, and with 1 (or especially 2) you can feel safer having Web out, which increases the efficiency of events ridiculously. Targeting Heart also makes the LS waste lots of unopposed they would otherwise get from spreading attacks around, so the "easier" win condition isn't really as big a deal I've found.

 

Recently I've been abandoning the conventional wisdom and playing Web when I get the chance, the event discount is just so strong. 

 

i havnt tried heart with ties yet... hmmm interesting....



#71
pantsyg

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i havnt tried heart with ties yet... hmmm interesting....

 

My version is definitely not a TIE deck in build or playstyle; the only TIE sets are Black Two and Delta One, both of which are more defense/control oriented. 



#72
BobaFett

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I really like every other card in the set though. The chud is meh but serviceable, resources are good, Stasis is amazing, and the Defense Fleet is extra good with Black Two around. The set also pairs well with Stele, since Hand and Stasis perform similar functions and both include solid blockers with shielding. I actually really like the objective as well; the starting resources are nice, and with 1 (or especially 2) you can feel safer having Web out, which increases the efficiency of events ridiculously. Targeting Heart also makes the LS waste lots of unopposed they would otherwise get from spreading attacks around, so the "easier" win condition isn't really as big a deal I've found.

 

Recently I've been abandoning the conventional wisdom and playing Web when I get the chance, the event discount is just so strong. 

 

yeah, i actually start heart a lot,  Its one of the ways to get a first turn vader, which, imo, is integral to staying ahead of jedi.  With heart and web out, your opponent really has to make a decision on what to go after.   If your opponent ever starts going after heart, and then changes his mind part way through because you just dropped a defense fleet or 2, thats pretty much game for him.  having to go through 10 more health plus shielding is pretty significant.



#73
BobaFett

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Sorry, for double post, I multi-quoted all of these and then after writing all this, it somehow got erased....

Force Stasis has always been amazing, and I can see the Defense Fleet being super threatening. LS must absolutely win edge or they are likely losing one of their main units.

 

Any comments on There Is No Escape? Can it actually be played to good effect regularly or is it often just edge fodder due to the cost and timing restriction? Always found it to be the most intriguing card in the set, but in core days Sith usually was in a pretty good position and there was no point for the reset. How about now? 

Admittedly, i rarely have used it.  However, mid to late game when you have lots of resources, specifically, force resources, its easier as you can still deploy stuff and win the force struggle to get extra resources for their.  But, it has 2 force bubs anyways though, so its a good edge card either way, and the rest of the set is very good imo.

 

What sort of Scum did you bring, Boba? Admittedly I haven't made any events this year, but locally Scum have done just as well as Sith for me and I was wondering how that translated into more competitive environments. 

 

I do have to say that my Sith wins often feel easier, since their removal and denial options are so strong against the Jedi build-a-board strategies. 

 

I believe it was something like 2x Xizor, 2x jabba, 2x lucrative, 1x bossk, 1x boussh, 1x salacious, and 1x zuckuss, but i had tried out many different variations of this deck.  I honestly don't think they are that competitive.  It seems like they are getting better sets lately, but then we get sets like ferrier and dannik and i'm not so sure anymore.....  they have a lot of moving parts and if you don't get those parts in a specific order, or you don't get the right capture bonuses going, they fall flat on their face.   Granted, when all these parts come together, they can completely crush decks, but that inconsistency hurts them too bad imo.  

 

If i had to rank the factions from best to worst, my list would go:

 

1. Jedi

2. Sith

3. smugglers

4. rebels

5. scum

6. navy



#74
TheNameWasTaken

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You know what I'd like to see to tame the spider craziness? I'd like the next errata to limit journey to one per objective deck. Yes, errata'ing OP cards is way worse than not designing OP cards in the first place, but what's done is done and that would at least be a solution.



#75
yodaman

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I'm not sure they need to do anything in terms of Journey to the Swamp.  If they were to errata anything, I think the one thing I would like to see (which I've posted before elsewhere) is a change so that activating the spider isn't an action, but a reaction to the conflict phase starting.  Some of the craziness with the spider comes from the fact that you can wait to activate it as a unit until the middle of conflict.  If you had to choose whether or not to activate it at the beginning of conflict, it would be easier to deal with it via tactics. 



#76
KennedyHawk

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I don't think an errata is needed if already slow ls decks opt to bring two full copies of an objective set with no blast then let them.
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#77
SeeThreebilbo

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I don't think an errata is needed if already slow ls decks opt to bring two full copies of an objective set with no blast then let them.

 

That's certainly one way to look at it.



#78
pantsyg

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I think the key difference is you could play around it by switching factions and making meta calls with speeders or smugglers later on. There is no faction that can play around Jedi right now (it should be Navy imho , but it just isnt quite there yet).

 

If you agree they are the strongest then we are in agreement.

 

And I really like force stasis. It got me top 4 in the biggest store champ on the east coast. I like that set quite a bit.

 

If you want to see a Spider Yoda opening get pooped on by TIEs, check out ~2 hours into this:

 

http://www.twitch.tv...ant/b/651265831

 

Classic example of the weakness inherent in a control Jedi Creature deck:  you have so many Jubbas and Spiders, there's a strong possibility you don't draw into your big mains. Yoda is great and consistently on board with YYSY, but he doesn't exactly knock down objectives solo. 

 

This game is evidence of something I've noticed lately, namely that aggressive DS decks tend to do well against slower Jedi decks that want to ping away at objectives over a long game. 

 

Also prominently on display was the value of the Escort Carrier, which I myself poo-poo'd with the new sets. It was a tactics magnet, allowing the TIEs to do their work unmolested. It puts the LS in a weird spot, where if they don't keep it locked down it can bring in a major threat, but if they do, they have to ignore other threats on board. The 4 cost is a non-issue if you use it to play a Delta One or Black Two.


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#79
SeeThreebilbo

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I agree. I had an awful game against my Sith deck when four of my mains (as I found out later) were in a row at the very bottom of my deck.



#80
tierdal

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I don't think an errata is needed if already slow ls decks opt to bring two full copies of an objective set with no blast then let them.


great in theory. .yet ignores the unopposed from unblocked spiders (you are not blocking unless you have a tactics and think you can win edge. ..guns do next to nothing against 5 health) ...and then this ignores the fact the set contains a free double strike in it.

This is not a slow set when combined with current jedi tools.