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LS / DS Actual Statistics From Store Champs/Regions

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#61
tierdal

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There should be plenty of them with how slowly Jedi ramp up their blast. Take into account corrupt officials and Palace Security and the DS can easily stall to end game with very little damage. I'm not going to bother with a stream or trying to find more examples for you. I'm just going to put you back on ignore until you stop screaming about the "Spider Jubba Yodas".

 

But jedi doesn't ramp up slowly. They use to, but thats because they had to be careful with a 2 HP yoda, and 1 of 2 lukes. 

 

There is a TON more blast (and black blast) available now.

 

I consistently see yoda/spider dropped 1st turn delivering 3-4 damage across 2 objectives. You only need 15 to win. Throw in all the double strike potential and "ramp up slowly" is the last thing id call jedi atm.



#62
CharlieFilms

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I consistently see yoda/spider dropped 1st turn delivering 3-4 damage across 2 objectives.

 

How?


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#63
pantsyg

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I consistently see yoda/spider dropped 1st turn delivering 3-4 damage across 2 objectives. 

 

I know nothing good will come of jumping in here, but f*** it, I'm bored enough to be entertained by forum shouting.

 

3-4 damage (assuming the 4th comes from Target?) isn't exactly a blockbuster first turn. Rebels and Smugglers can both put out way more early damage pretty consistently. If MTFBWY isn't out, making that attack isn't wise to begin with. Also, that much damage assumes both attacks end up unopposed. 

 

Not to mention there are a TON of tools to counter this "Spider Yoda" turn 1 play that has you so confounded. Lightning Yoda after he strikes. Hand of the Emperor or Force Stasis on Yoda or the Spider. Flood the board with cheap, durable dudes (aka Galactic Scum) so you have plenty of early defenders. Echoes of the Force to deny the MTFBWY play--all of these are in viable, meta-strong sets (even Stasis IMO). 

 

Frankly, with as many strong Jedi sets as are out at the moment, I'm surprised that these are the cards that are still giving you trouble. IMO Rahn is a harder problem to crack than Spiders. 


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#64
tierdal

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I know nothing good will come of jumping in here, but f*** it, I'm bored enough to be entertained by forum shouting.

 

3-4 damage (assuming the 4th comes from Target?) isn't exactly a blockbuster first turn. Rebels and Smugglers can both put out way more early damage pretty consistently. If MTFBWY isn't out, making that attack isn't wise to begin with. Also, that much damage assumes both attacks end up unopposed. 

 

Not to mention there are a TON of tools to counter this "Spider Yoda" turn 1 play that has you so confounded. Lightning Yoda after he strikes. Hand of the Emperor or Force Stasis on Yoda or the Spider. Flood the board with cheap, durable dudes (aka Galactic Scum) so you have plenty of early defenders. Echoes of the Force to deny the MTFBWY play--all of these are in viable, meta-strong sets (even Stasis IMO). 

 

Frankly, with as many strong Jedi sets as are out at the moment, I'm surprised that these are the cards that are still giving you trouble. IMO Rahn is a harder problem to crack than Spiders. 

 

 

So with the 3 you are spending on force lightning and the *insert enhacement removal card here* you are using to "deal with this opening easily...with TONS of answers"....what units are you playing and with what resources?

 

Rahn can be played around. Great pod, but not under costed for what it is. Saying he is stronger than a 1 cost 5 hitpoint spider with 1 cost recursion, 2 guns and a tactics... is a bit bonkers.



#65
TheMAC

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I agree jedis are brutal. However I belive the dark side have to play their 1st turn very mediculously. We cant just go all in and run a turn 1 vader and expect to win. Actually keeping him in hand to help to win the 1st edge battle can wierdly sound like a good idea, as to use more swarm and less super MVP decks.


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#66
LethalHobo

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Not to mention there are a TON of tools to counter this "Spider Yoda" turn 1 play that has you so confounded. Lightning Yoda after he strikes. Hand of the Emperor or Force Stasis on Yoda or the Spider. Flood the board with cheap, durable dudes (aka Galactic Scum) so you have plenty of early defenders. Echoes of the Force to deny the MTFBWY play--all of these are in viable, meta-strong sets (even Stasis IMO).

IMO Rahn is a harder problem to crack than Spiders.


Sure, those cards will help you for a turn, but they won't help you for the ongoing turns. Even if you have Web out, you're only going to be able to play one bro, or two super cheap bros AND save for lightning on your turn one. That's not exactly explosive. You're right about other factions being able to do more on turn one with the nuts, but with that dismal turn one against a spider/yoda opening, you're digging yourself a bigger hole.

I'm not sure I follow your last comment. Rahn has protect sure, but.... So? His ability only goes off if he uses protect, and even then, it's two free damage. Big whoop. If you're telling me that Rahn is a bigger problem than a 1 cost unit that can't be deadly sighted, can soak up lightnings, and has 5 health with THREE black icons... Then you and I should share trade secrets because it sounds like we have the answers to each other's problems lol.

That spider basically can get 2 or 3 at the least, guaranteed attacks through. A SPIDER?! Cray-cray.

#67
pantsyg

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Sure, those cards will help you for a turn, but they won't help you for the ongoing turns. Even if you have Web out, you're only going to be able to play one bro, or two super cheap bros AND save for lightning on your turn one. That's not exactly explosive. You're right about other factions being able to do more on turn one with the nuts, but with that dismal turn one against a spider/yoda opening, you're digging yourself a bigger hole.

I'm not sure I follow your last comment. Rahn has protect sure, but.... So? His ability only goes off if he uses protect, and even then, it's two free damage. Big whoop. If you're telling me that Rahn is a bigger problem than a 1 cost unit that can't be deadly sighted, can soak up lightnings, and has 5 health with THREE black icons... Then you and I should share trade secrets because it sounds like we have the answers to each other's problems lol.

That spider basically can get 2 or 3 at the least, guaranteed attacks through. A SPIDER?! Cray-cray.

 

OK OK, I'll concede the point. The Spider is definitely cheap for what it does, but I think the tougher part is the fact that you can search for both Yoda and a Spider if you see the right cards (JTtS objective and YYSY), which makes it more consistent than finding the answers on DS. I saw elsewhere someone suggesting banning the set, though, which I don't think is really necessary unless you were just trying to increase deck diversity since MTFBWY + Master's Domain + Journey, in some combo, are staples in lots of mono-Jedi decks. 

 

As for my comment about Rahn: of course this is anecdotal, but I personally find him hard to handle. Protect means that you can generally optimize how much damage he takes so he can always get off the 2 damage with his ability before dying, and often he gets Force Rejuvenated or Cleansed in my experience. 



#68
LethalHobo

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OK OK, I'll concede the point. The Spider is definitely cheap for what it does, but I think the tougher part is the fact that you can search for both Yoda and a Spider if you see the right cards (JTtS objective and YYSY), which makes it more consistent than finding the answers on DS.


As for my comment about Rahn: of course this is anecdotal, but I personally find him hard to handle. Protect means that you can generally optimize how much damage he takes so he can always get off the 2 damage with his ability before dying, and often he gets Force Rejuvenated or Cleansed in my experience.


OMG YES! THIS! This sums up the real problem that I don't really see anyone mention. I didn't quite know how to put it into words myself, but you're right. It's more the CONSISTENCY of how easy it is to get both of those nerds that is the problem. I know people have said the w/l ratio right now is about 60 LS to 40 DS, but honestly, when the DS wins, it feels more likely to draw (i.e, getting all the pieces out when you need them). This is much easier to do with by LS BECAUSE of the different tutors they have.

I haven't really had a problem with Rahn because I always make sure to focus fire on him first, not letting him protect anything. Granted, this makes it harder when his objective is flopped, but it's still rather tame imo compared to that damn spider. :D

#69
BobaFett

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Force stasis shuts spider down, and costs LS a resource, and with Web out, it's free.... Or you can shut Yoda down, and let the spider get a free unopposed and they have to waste mtfbwy on yoda to take force

#70
tierdal

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Sure, those cards will help you for a turn, but they won't help you for the ongoing turns. Even if you have Web out, you're only going to be able to play one bro, or two super cheap bros AND save for lightning on your turn one. That's not exactly explosive. You're right about other factions being able to do more on turn one with the nuts, but with that dismal turn one against a spider/yoda opening, you're digging yourself a bigger hole.

I'm not sure I follow your last comment. Rahn has protect sure, but.... So? His ability only goes off if he uses protect, and even then, it's two free damage. Big whoop. If you're telling me that Rahn is a bigger problem than a 1 cost unit that can't be deadly sighted, can soak up lightnings, and has 5 health with THREE black icons... Then you and I should share trade secrets because it sounds like we have the answers to each other's problems lol.

That spider basically can get 2 or 3 at the least, guaranteed attacks through. A SPIDER?! Cray-cray.

 

And here I thought I was taking crazy pills :P Great response!



#71
pantsyg

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OMG YES! THIS! This sums up the real problem that I don't really see anyone mention. I didn't quite know how to put it into words myself, but you're right. It's more the CONSISTENCY of how easy it is to get both of those nerds that is the problem. I know people have said the w/l ratio right now is about 60 LS to 40 DS, but honestly, when the DS wins, it feels more likely to draw (i.e, getting all the pieces out when you need them). This is much easier to do with by LS BECAUSE of the different tutors they have.

 

Yeah, this just sort of clicked for me as I was writing a snarky reply defending my "Spider ain't so bad" logic. I wonder if more tutors for DS, either as objectives or on cards, would help balance out the situation. ATM I can't think of any DS tutor effects, so overall deck consistency seems weaker for DS than LS. 

 

 

I haven't really had a problem with Rahn because I always make sure to focus fire on him first, not letting him protect anything. Granted, this makes it harder when his objective is flopped, but it's still rather tame imo compared to that damn spider. :D

 

My opponents annoyingly tend not to put him into fights, so I have to ping away at him slowly unless I get TS out. While he's out, blocking characters is a pain in the booty. 



#72
tierdal

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OMG YES! THIS! This sums up the real problem that I don't really see anyone mention. I didn't quite know how to put it into words myself, but you're right. It's more the CONSISTENCY of how easy it is to get both of those nerds that is the problem. I know people have said the w/l ratio right now is about 60 LS to 40 DS, but honestly, when the DS wins, it feels more likely to draw (i.e, getting all the pieces out when you need them). This is much easier to do with by LS BECAUSE of the different tutors they have.

I haven't really had a problem with Rahn because I always make sure to focus fire on him first, not letting him protect anything. Granted, this makes it harder when his objective is flopped, but it's still rather tame imo compared to that damn spider. :D

 

 

I've literally been shouting from the rooftops that the great units + consistency is the core problem :P Glad to have support tho!

 

 

 

Force stasis shuts spider down, and costs LS a resource, and with Web out, it's free.... Or you can shut Yoda down, and let the spider get a free unopposed and they have to waste mtfbwy on yoda to take force

 

 

Ya - wonderful. And then you are stuck with a subpar pod that doesn't do a whole lot in securing victory from a control OR aggro aspect. You have to think about things as they are - with pods - not in a vacuum.

 

And forcing someone to commit yoda to free him up... so they win the force struggle...is not really a "force". That is generally what they want to do.

 

Its not that the spider is some ridiculous unstopable force that eats objectives. It is just a very cheap way to gain a lot of board presence early (tactics AND 2 guns) and keep it - w/ recursion and 5health



#73
LethalHobo

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I've literally been shouting from the rooftops that the great units + consistency is the core problem :P Glad to have support tho!



Haven't had a whole lot of time to post as much as I usually do so if I skimmed through your posts, my bad bro.

BUT...I agree with you on that point for sure. Same with Pants. The real problem is that DS doesn't have any Event cancel or any tutor cards. Noonerz and I discussed this the whole way back from Tucson ha.
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#74
tierdal

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Haven't had a whole lot of time to post as much as I usually do so if I skimmed through your posts, my bad bro.

BUT...I agree with you on that point for sure. Same with Pants. The real problem is that DS doesn't have any Event cancel or any tutor cards. Noonerz and I discussed this the whole way back from Tucson ha.

 

One event cancel pod would go so far. Suddenly Tutoring for Yoda is a risk with consequences... and you cant ALWAYS count on recursion. It would change everything.

 

And no worries. I think sometimes people get defensive and just respond emotionally without actually reading what people write. We are all guilty of it :P



#75
SmokeyJ

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It seems to be a pretty simple explanation to me. Jedi have the ability to run 3 or more copies of most of their mains, YYSY and Rahn's guidance to tutor for those mains. People struggle with and complain about the spider because it is almost always accompanied by a main. First turn spider with no main isn't something anyone is scared of, so to me the creature set is more of a distraction than anything else in this whole discussion(i.e. Jedi would be no worse off if the set didn't exist).

Give Sith the ability to run 3 or more of some of their mains, and cards to tutor them out in addition, and no one would be complaining about the matchup feeling draw dependent for the DS. To which many would say, "Then no one would play any of the other factions!" Maybe, but mains and toys decks will always be a thing in a SW card game because people like playing with the characters they like from the franchise. Making those characters and decks good isn't a bad thing. It would just be nice from an OP standpoint if the other factions were given strategies/mechanics that were on a similar level (I'm looking at you, capture).

I personally enjoy the LS where it's at and would much rather see the DS brought up to a similar level than to see existing cards get nerfed. The less RNG-y/top-decky the game is the better IMO.
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#76
tierdal

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It seems to be a pretty simple explanation to me. Jedi have the ability to run 3 or more copies of most of their mains, YYSY and Rahn's guidance to tutor for those mains. People struggle with and complain about the spider because it is almost always accompanied by a main. First turn spider with no main isn't something anyone is scared of, so to me the creature set is more of a distraction than anything else in this whole discussion(i.e. Jedi would be no worse off if the set didn't exist).

Give Sith the ability to run 3 or more of some of their mains, and cards to tutor them out in addition, and no one would be complaining about the matchup feeling draw dependent for the DS. To which many would say, "Then no one would play any of the other factions!" Maybe, but mains and toys decks will always be a thing in a SW card game because people like playing with the characters they like from the franchise. Making those characters and decks good isn't a bad thing. It would just be nice from an OP standpoint if the other factions were given strategies/mechanics that were on a similar level (I'm looking at you, capture).

I personally enjoy the LS where it's at and would much rather see the DS brought up to a similar level than to see existing cards get nerfed. The less RNG-y/top-decky the game is the better IMO.

 

 

Yes, yes , Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 

We are in 99% alignment - except with the "No worse off if it didn't exist"

 

The spider is a distraction which allows you to bomb objectives...only compounded with tactics stripping jubbas and double striking mains (size matters not). Its the best support set in the game, hands down.

 

Even the spider alone, while not as scary, is a GREAT defender vs Ties and great for getting unopposed/tactics people on the force because most people dont want to risk their 2 hp dudes w/ no tactics against a 5 hp spider w/ recursion. 

 

I don't want LS nerfed, I want DS to get answers. I just fear with people throwing out things like "game is fine and balanced, 40/60 splits no problem here!" really flies in the face of the consistency of running up against a first turn yoda/spider nearly every game with everything going downhill from there..

 

Capture is SOOOO overcosted right now =/ Its a weanie destory...which they would fix that.



#77
darthbs

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The spider is a distraction which allows you to bomb objectives...only compounded with tactics stripping jubbas and double striking mains (size matters not). Its the best support set in the game, hands down.


"I've been saying it, I've been saying it for ten dam years, aint I been saying it?"

I can now look back and feel smug over my fellow co hosts on No Disintegrations when I said this set would do things. :D


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#78
tierdal

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"I've been saying it, I've been saying it for ten dam years, aint I been saying it?"

I can now look back and feel smug over my fellow co hosts on No Disintegrations when I said this set would do things. :D

haha - cant wait for tarkin... he will be the new hottness ! Jubbas nomore!


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#79
BobaFett

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Ya - wonderful. And then you are stuck with a subpar pod that doesn't do a whole lot in securing victory from a control OR aggro aspect. You have to think about things as they are - with pods - not in a vacuum.
 
And forcing someone to commit yoda to free him up... so they win the force struggle...is not really a "force". That is generally what they want to do.


Your the one with the problem not I. I don't have the problems you have beating Jedi. I played some Jedi decks just the other night on octgn with a tossed together sith deck splashing in core boba fett and xizor, and won.

And forcing your opponent to burn one of his forever commits on a Yoda who can't attack is a pretty Big waste for your opponent. That's kind of the whole point of mtfbwy.....


I don't know what else to tell you. Maybe if you create 50 more threads complaining about juuba birds FFG will do something. Then again, if you spent that same amount of time playing your Jedi against Scottie and his various DS decks (probably losing to a majority of them), you might come to a different realization.....
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#80
tierdal

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Your the one with the problem not I. I don't have the problems you have beating Jedi. I played some Jedi decks just the other night on octgn with a tossed together sith deck splashing in core boba fett and xizor, and won.

And forcing your opponent to burn one of his forever commits on a Yoda who can't attack is a pretty Big waste for your opponent. That's kind of the whole point of mtfbwy.....


I don't know what else to tell you. Maybe if you create 50 more threads complaining about juuba birds FFG will do something. Then again, if you spent that same amount of time playing your Jedi against Scottie and his various DS decks (probably losing to a majority of them), you might come to a different realization.....

 

I've beat scottie before with my Jedi deck. That alone should never happen. The guy is 10x better at the game than I am.