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Catelyn Stark (Core) vs The Wall (Core)

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Best Answer istaril , 04 July 2015 - 07:56 PM

You've hit on one of the trickiest situations in the core set! Thankfully, the short answer is pretty easy: The Wall's Forced reaction (and other Forced Reactions/Forced Interrupts, like Jorah Mormont (Core)) still initiates. The justification isnt too bad either: the game is initiating forced abilities, not the player.

 

The reasoning behind that, though, is a little complex - so here we go! First of all, Catelyn's ability is actually a sort of shorthand for "initate triggered effects(but that is pretty obvious). Key to all this is that nowhere in the rules is there any reference to a player initiating a Forced Reaction/Forced Interrupt - in fact quite the opposite. We know that the first player resolves the order in which they initiate (Forced Interrupts/Forced Reactions, RR p8, as well as Priority of Simultaneous Resolution, RR p16), which is how we treat other abilities initated by the game - like the When Revealed ability on plots, whose timing is determined by the game itself. This may sound a bit convoluted, but keep in mind that just like in 1st edition, these sorts of effects are not any given player's responsibility to initiate/not, but mandated by the game itself (and, in terms of ensuring they happen, the responsibility of all players).

In summary: forced abilities are initiated by the game itself, not by your opponent, and are therefore not affected Catelyn's restriction on allowing opponents to initiate triggered effects.

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#1
istaril

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(Note that this post is being used to demonstrate question asking/answer, which is why I answer myself).

 

How does Catelyn Stark, whose text reads "While Catelyn Stark is participating in a challenge, your opponents cannot trigger card abilities." interact with The Wall's "Forced Reaction: After you lose an unopposed challenge, kneel The Wall."? Does Catelyn prevent the drawback on The Wall from triggering, if she wins an unopposed challenge?



#2
istaril

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✓  Best Answer

You've hit on one of the trickiest situations in the core set! Thankfully, the short answer is pretty easy: The Wall's Forced reaction (and other Forced Reactions/Forced Interrupts, like Jorah Mormont (Core)) still initiates. The justification isnt too bad either: the game is initiating forced abilities, not the player.

 

The reasoning behind that, though, is a little complex - so here we go! First of all, Catelyn's ability is actually a sort of shorthand for "initate triggered effects(but that is pretty obvious). Key to all this is that nowhere in the rules is there any reference to a player initiating a Forced Reaction/Forced Interrupt - in fact quite the opposite. We know that the first player resolves the order in which they initiate (Forced Interrupts/Forced Reactions, RR p8, as well as Priority of Simultaneous Resolution, RR p16), which is how we treat other abilities initated by the game - like the When Revealed ability on plots, whose timing is determined by the game itself. This may sound a bit convoluted, but keep in mind that just like in 1st edition, these sorts of effects are not any given player's responsibility to initiate/not, but mandated by the game itself (and, in terms of ensuring they happen, the responsibility of all players).

In summary: forced abilities are initiated by the game itself, not by your opponent, and are therefore not affected Catelyn's restriction on allowing opponents to initiate triggered effects.



#3
smeehee

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just for clarification

is Catelyn Stark still participating in a challenge when the Forced Reaction occurs as it is after you lose the challenge so the challenge is over

 

the way you answered the question seems to imply that Catelyn Stark would stop a Reaction based on the outcome of the challenge such as: 

Plaza of Punishment Reaction: After you win a power challenge, kneel Plaza of Punishment to choose a character without attachments. Until the end of the phase, that character gets -2 strength and is killed if its strength is 0. 



#4
istaril

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Since we don't have the rules yet, it's hard to answer clearly, but we do have three pieces of evidence that suggest it is so:

1) All reactions that key off a challenge win/loss refer to if a character is participating (not participated) (e.g. Throwing Axe. Reaction: After you win a challenge in which attached character is participating...) suggesting the character is still participating at the time a reaction to winning/losing the challenge is initiated.

 

2) We have the spoiled rules for the challenge resolution framework from the Quill & Tankard Regulars (lI):1, which includes a step for when the challenge ends. That step is after win/losing the challenge, processing unopposed power, claim, and challenge resolution keywords like insight and renown.

 

3) It worked like that in first edition. Not a great answer, but until we all get our hands on the rules document, there's not much more to go on.



#5
ktom

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Actually, I think there is a 4th, more definitive piece of evidence.

 

The text of the keyword "Insight," as spoiled on the Samwell Tarly card is, "Insight (After you win a challenge in which this character is participating, you may draw 1 card.)"

 

Note the "...is participating..." phrasing there.

 

Since this must be one of the challenge resolution keywords mentioned in the Q&TR spoiler of the flow of the challenge phase, it can only work if the character is still considered to be participating when you get to the "Process challenge resolution keywords" step - after all other challenge resolution steps are complete.

 

This means that if the attacking and defending characters are not considered to be participating in the challenge after the winner of the challenge is determined, the Insight keyword can never work.



#6
FallenOn3

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if i got the rules from the QnT article... all effects that are responses to after u win or after u lose effects trigger before the unnoposed gain, claim and keywords.. am i right?



#7
istaril

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if i got the rules from the QnT article... all effects that are responses to after u win or after u lose effects trigger before the unnoposed gain, claim and keywords.. am i right?

 

Yes, that about sums it up. Reactions to Winning/Losing a challenge trigger before Unopposed power gain (And reactions to that), then Claim (and reactions to that), then keywords (and all reactions to that, like Euron). That means the timing steps matter, so I have been recommending the acronym LUCK (Lose, Unopposed, Claim, Keywords).



#8
mplain

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Reactions to Winning/Losing a challenge trigger before Unopposed power gain (And reactions to that), then Claim (and reactions to that), then keywords (and all reactions to that, like Euron). That means the timing steps matter, so I have been recommending the acronym LUCK (Lose, Unopposed, Claim, Keywords).

 

When do I play a reaction to winning an unopposed challenge (Greyjoy cards)? At 4.2.2 (same as to winning a challenge) or at 4.2.3 (same as the unopposed power gain, before or after it)?



#9
FallenOn3

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When do I play a reaction to winning an unopposed challenge (Greyjoy cards)? At 4.2.2 (same as to winning a challenge) or at 4.2.3 (same as the unopposed power gain, before or after it)?

i'd say its same as all the after u win a challenge, so at 4.2.2.
4.2.3. gain unopposed power is only a framework for gaining power, so this framework would activate any 'after u gain unopposed power' efect ( i think in 1.0 greyjoy plot rise of the kraken modifies this framework)
correct me if i got something wrong :) 


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#10
ScionMattly

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Seems to be the right of it - you're reacting to the determining challenge winner (which is when you count strength and if str = 0 , the challenge is unopposed), so reaction to 4.2.2 is when you trigger those effects.



#11
istaril

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Yup. In order to react to 4.2.3, it would have to refer to gaining power for unopposed as its triggering condition, not to winning the challenge (unopposed in this case is not really diffferent from "by 5 or more strength", or "in which you have a participating lord -it serves as a qualifier to winning)


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#12
ScionMattly

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Istaril, I know we haven't seen the rules doc yet, but it actually seems from the few QnT articles we have seen that the rules are...fairly intuitive right? We've had a half dozen questions or so and they seem very easy to navidate with this Action/Reaction/Interrupt framework they've set up. What do you think?



#13
istaril

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Istaril, I know we haven't seen the rules doc yet, but it actually seems from the few QnT articles we have seen that the rules are...fairly intuitive right? We've had a half dozen questions or so and they seem very easy to navidate with this Action/Reaction/Interrupt framework they've set up. What do you think?

 

Well, the trouble is that intuitive isn't a very good measuring stick - it's too variable from person to person (and across cultures, math systems, count systems, formal logic systems). So really, we have to judge the system by how complete it is, what kinds of questions peope are driven to ask about it (how comprehensible it is), how often people play it wrong without knowing they are doing so... that kind of thing. Those are metrics we'll only get to see once the game is being played.

 

You may also be asking the wrong person! If there are 4 people in the world who think these rules are intuitive, its probably the Alex/Kevin/Patrick mentioned in this article, plus Nate French himself. Perhaps you'd best ask someone else...



#14
ktom

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You may also be asking the wrong person! If there are 4 people in the world who think these rules are intuitive, its probably the Alex/Kevin/Patrick mentioned in this article, plus Nate French himself. Perhaps you'd best ask someone else...

 

Yeah... See, I find most of the 1.0 rules intuitive (at least within context), so I'm definitely the wrong person to ask.


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#15
Ratatoskr

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the rules are...fairly intuitive right?

 

~Yeah, I hate it. How will I ever win a game again if everyone can understand the rules?


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#16
ScionMattly

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I know right?. I usually won melee games by memorizing rules and exploiting ignorance. 
Thank god second edition came around, because everyone had finally learned first edition.



#17
PBrennan

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You may also be asking the wrong person! If there are 4 people in the world who think these rules are intuitive, its probably the Alex/Kevin/Patrick mentioned in this article, plus Nate French himself. Perhaps you'd best ask someone else...

 

No matter how solid the rules, the nature of the beast is that the card effect envelope will always push the rules into new spaces and there'll always be a need for clarifications or confirmations. But a ton of experience with Star Wars and Conquest has allowed us to cover this system in a lot more depth than those games originally did, so hopefully a lot of the rules questions will be able to be answered simply by pointing to (or combining) the right spots in the rules reference guide. I'm sure there'll still be a few holes that we didn't quite cover (or which might have been considered too arcane to squeeze in), but hopefully it'll provide a really solid base on which to grow the game.

 

Patrick



#18
Masterdinadan

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Rules reference says that characters declared as attacker or defender are participating throughout the resolution of the challenge.

I take that to mean that characters begin participating in 4.2 or 4.2.1, and they cease participating in 4.2.6.

Plaza of Punishment is a reaction to 4.2.2, so Catelyn is still participating and will prevent it.

Also, Catelyn would prevent an effect that says "Interrupt: When a challenge ends..." (Which resolves just before 4.2.6) but she would not prevent an effect that says "Response: After a challenge ends..." (Which resolves just after 4.2.6, at which point Catelyn is not longer participating)
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#19
istaril

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Yup, Masterdinadan, all of that looks exactly right. 



#20
Shuwar

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Continuing, what if I use the above mentioned Plaza of Punishment on a participating character? Since Reactions come before claim and keywords, do I still get Renown and similar (imagine I killed my own man)? After all, what is dead, may not gain power  :P And does the challenge become unopposed if I get rid of the only participating defender ('post-challenge')? (edit: no, it doesn't)