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Duplicates of characters who are both in play and in deadpile

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Best Answer istaril , 14 July 2015 - 03:46 PM

Yeah, I just had to take my time on this one and make sure all of the (many) entries on duplicates, uniques, dead pile restrictions etc justified the ruling. There are quite a few entries that could clarify this. (Bolding emphasis mine).

 

Duplicates p7.  A player may use additional copies, by title, of any unique card (indicated by a “x” symbol in its title) he or she owns and controls in play as duplicates. When a card enters play as a duplicate,..

 

Duplicates p7 Duplicates have no text, titles, characteristics, type, or traits. A duplicate is only considered a blank “duplicate card” while it is in play.

 

Dead Pile p.5 A player cannot marshal, play, put into play, or take control of a copy of any unique card that is in his or her dead pile.

 

Which leads us to the following conclusions. 1) The ability to play a duplicate is a play permission (may), but certainly would not overwrite the “Cannot” of the restriction. 2) A duplicate is only considered blank while it is in play. 3) The rules for duplicates require that the card be an additional copy, so the card must be a unique card when that check is made, and is therefore subject to the restrictions placed on marshaling/putting into play unique cards.

 

So the final answer: No, you cannot marshal/put into play a duplicate of a unique card if one is in your dead pile already. 

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40 replies to this topic

#1
nikotinlaus

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As the title says, can I marshall a duplicate of a character who is both in play AND in the deadpile? (This can happen with heads on pikes). Is the "you cannot marshall copies of unique characters who are already in your deadpile" rule also for dupes?


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#2
istaril

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This is one I don't dare answer without the full rules, because these are the kind of nitty-gritty changes which could have gone either way from first edition. On the bright side, this is a fairly rare situation as, given the max of 3 copies of a card by title per deck, the likelihood of having played the first, lost the second to Heads on Spikes, then drawn the third before the first died is pretty slim! It should still definitely be answered in the rules somewhere.

 

The situation has precedent in First edition (with cards like Aegon's Hill, and Visenya's Hill), and there answer there was that you could not. I even have a link to a 4 year old thread where a younger me was completely wrong and being corrected by ktom (and everyone else).

 

I hope to remember to revisit this answer whenever we get access to the rules documents.


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#3
mplain

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Did we get a definite answer from the Rules Reference for this one?



#4
istaril

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✓  Best Answer

Yeah, I just had to take my time on this one and make sure all of the (many) entries on duplicates, uniques, dead pile restrictions etc justified the ruling. There are quite a few entries that could clarify this. (Bolding emphasis mine).

 

Duplicates p7.  A player may use additional copies, by title, of any unique card (indicated by a “x” symbol in its title) he or she owns and controls in play as duplicates. When a card enters play as a duplicate,..

 

Duplicates p7 Duplicates have no text, titles, characteristics, type, or traits. A duplicate is only considered a blank “duplicate card” while it is in play.

 

Dead Pile p.5 A player cannot marshal, play, put into play, or take control of a copy of any unique card that is in his or her dead pile.

 

Which leads us to the following conclusions. 1) The ability to play a duplicate is a play permission (may), but certainly would not overwrite the “Cannot” of the restriction. 2) A duplicate is only considered blank while it is in play. 3) The rules for duplicates require that the card be an additional copy, so the card must be a unique card when that check is made, and is therefore subject to the restrictions placed on marshaling/putting into play unique cards.

 

So the final answer: No, you cannot marshal/put into play a duplicate of a unique card if one is in your dead pile already. 



#5
Flint

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I believe you are wrong.

Marshaling a duplicate is not considered marshaling
a card of the duplicate’s printed type. It is only
considered “marshaling a duplicate card.”


Duplicates have no text, titles, characteristics, type,
or traits. A duplicate is only considered a blank
“duplicate card” while it is in play.

#6
LukaszO

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@Flint I'm not happy!

@istaril. You can duplicate a card that you have a copy of in the dead pile.
A card being "dead" means you cannot play/ put it into playa copy of that card.
Marshalling a duplicate is not playing a copy of the card, like Flint said.
When you play a unique card that you already have in play it is a duplicate. There is no
moment in the game when the card you marshalled was anything but a duplicate. It enters play
without text,name, keywords etc. Thus having a copy of the card in the dead pile does not stop
you from marshalling a duplicate.
As you said dead pile introduces a restriction on playing a copy of a dead card. So if you somehow
remove the card from play (discard, hand, 1ed Coldhands, edead pile again, ec) you cannot play
another copy. But while it is in play you can marshall duplicates on it as it is not playing a copy.

#7
mplain

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Copy =/= duplicate? So when the rules refer to copies (in bold), this has nothing to do with duplicates?

 

Marshaling a duplicate is not considered marshaling a card of the duplicate’s printed type. It is only considered “marshaling a duplicate card.”


#8
istaril

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Flint; the emphasis here is that the card is only titleless while it is in play

 

mplain: I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but a copy is not always a duplicate (and a duplicate isn't always a copy). For instance, a second instace of a non-unique card IS a copy of it, but will not be a duplicate - while the facedown card under Arya is a duplicate, but is not a copy (well - it could be, but what are the odds :P).



#9
mplain

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I understand the phrase "Marshal a duplicate card" as something very generic, like "discard a card".

 

Whenever I discard a card to gain 1 gold from Forest Hunter, the game does not care what card it is, it does not check for its name or type.

 

Same should be happening with "marshaling a duplicate card" - just like the Morph mechanic in MtG, you're not marshaling a duplicate card with cardname X, you're just marshaling a generic duplicate card.

 

In this sense, using card X to 'marshal a duplicate card' shouldn't be blocked by having a card with that name in my dead pile, because I'm not marshaling, playing, putting into play, or taking control of a copy of card X, i'm just using it to marshal a 'duplicate card'.



#10
ScionMattly

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Statement 1: Rules Reference says a Duplicate is only considered a blank duplicate card while it is in play.

Conclusion 1: Duplicate cards are considered normal cards while in your hand.

Conclusion 2: A Card becomes blanked of all text after it is attached to it's duplicate.
Statement 2: Rules Reference says you cannot marshal, put into play, or take a unique card in your dead pile.
Conclusion 3: You cannot attach a duplicate card to a character that you have a copy of in your dead pile.



#11
ScionMattly

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I also fail to understand the difference between "Marashalling a duplicate" and "using a card to marshal a duplicate". both actions are marshaling a card.



#12
Bomb

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Maybe the difference in sentences is intended for "duplicate via unique by title" and "using an effect to allow you to marshal a duplicate beyond the normal dupe rules". 

 

Sentence two might be to cover characters like this guy in 1.0:

 

clash101.jpg

 

(even though that's still not marshaling the card, so nevermind)



#13
ScionMattly

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Arguably Jory is still putting a card into play, so his ability doesn't work for dead uniques, yes?



#14
ktom

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Same should be happening with "marshaling a duplicate card" - just like the Morph mechanic in MtG, you're not marshaling a duplicate card with cardname X, you're just marshaling a generic duplicate card.

 

In this sense, using card X to 'marshal a duplicate card' shouldn't be blocked by having a card with that name in my dead pile, because I'm not marshaling, playing, putting into play, or taking control of a copy of card X, i'm just using it to marshal a 'duplicate card'.

 

Here is the timing reason why this conclusion is incorrect:

 

In order to initiate an ability or marshal a card, you have to go through the following process (in order) - RRG p. 10:

1. Check play restrictions

2. Determine cost

3. Modify cost

4. Pay cost

5. Choose targets

6. Initiate effect

7. Resolve effect

 

When you marshal a duplicate, the first thing you do is check the play restrictions. At this point, the card is just a card with its normal title, cost, etc. And in this step, you run up against two separate rules:

A. If this is a unique card and there is already a copy in your dead pile, you cannot marshal it.

B. If this is a unique card and you already have a copy in play, you can only marshal it as a duplicate of the copy in play.

 

These two play restrictions are not mutually exclusive. So if you have another copy in your dead pile, "A" stops you from going any further in the initiation process. If you don't have another copy in the dead pile, "B" allows you to continue to Steps 2-7, marshaling the card as a duplicate (i.e., for 0 cost, etc.). Once Step 7 is complete and the card is in play, the card is considered titleless, textless, etc.

 

In short, the card doesn't "become" a dupe in time during the initiation/marshaling process to lose its title and side-step the dead pile restriction. The dead pile restriction is checked at the same time as determining that you would be playing a dupe and, in the process, trumps your attempt to marshal or "put into play" the dupe ("cannot" being absolute).


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#15
Jemiol

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So if theres an interrupt effect that triggers off a unique character being marshalled it will trigger when marshaling a dupe? This reasoning would seem to follow from the statement that a card becomes titleless, typeless etc. only after step 7 is complete. The rrg entry does seem to prevent that, but in such case when does the card actually lose its nonduplicate attributes?

#16
ktom

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So if theres an interrupt effect that triggers off a unique character being marshalled it will trigger when marshaling a dupe?

 

I'm not sure you can speak in generalities on this one because the full text of such an ability will be dispositive on when and where in the process it would be used, and thus what the game state will be when it is triggered. Essentially, "Interrupt: When you marshal a unique card..." probably isn't enough to tell you where in the 7-step process to trigger such an interrupt.

 

What the RRG entry on marshaling a dupe surely prevents is "Reaction: After you marshal a unique card..." effects from being triggered after a dupe is marshaled. 

 

However, if you follow what I posted above, the card you are marshaling could be considered a dupe (i.e., with no trait, text, type or characteristic) in steps 2-7 of the initiation process, but not during Step 1 - when you check the play restrictions and determine if it is marshaled as a dupe (because there is a copy in play) or if it can be marshaled at all (because there is a copy in the dead pile). And since "copy" is determined "by title" in this game, the card must have its title in Step 1 in order to verify that it is a dupe (or in the dead pile) in the first place.



#17
mplain

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So does the Marshaling Orders plot prohibit me form marshaling duplicates of unique locations and attachments?



#18
ktom

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Do you mean "Marching Orders"? With the text, "You cannot marshal locations or attachments, or play events."?

 

No, it doesn't stop you from marshaling dupes of unique locations or attachments. The two situations are not as similar as they may appear.

 

With Marching Orders, when you check play restrictions, you run into the two following things:

A. You cannot marshal locations or attachment. (plot)

B. You cannot marshal copies of unique cards that are already in play, except as dupes. (rule)

 

So, you go to marshal a copy of a unique location that is in play. You can only marshal that copy as a dupe. The rules tell us that when you marshal a dupe, you are not considered to be marshaling a card of the dupe's printed type. Because there is a rule telling you to effectively ignore the printed type, there is no conflict with the plot card. However, you are still marshaling a copy of the unique card that is already in play - just as a dupe (that's how you know which card the dupe enters play on, right?).

 

But with a copy in your dead pile, when you check play restrictions, you run into the two following things:

A. You cannot marshal copies of unique cards that are already in your dead pile. (rule)

B. You cannot marshal copies of unique cards that are already in play, except as dupes. (rule)

 

So, you go to marshal a copy of a unique card that is both in play and in your dead pile. You can marshal that copy as a dupe, but that doesn't mean that you aren't trying to marshal a copy of the unique card. In fact, you must be marshaling a copy of the unique card - as a dupe - because it can only enter play on its "copy." Since you are still trying to marshal a copy of a unique card that is in your dead pile, A stops you cold.

 

So you see, specifically being able to ignore the duplicate's printed type and having to maintain the fact that the duplicate is a copy of another card makes the two situations very different.


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#19
Bomb

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That's an excellent post ktom.  Bravo.



#20
mplain

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tl;dr When I marshal a duplicate card, its type is blanked but its title is not?