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Cancelling Hand's Judgement with Hand's Judgement

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Best Answer ktom , 02 August 2015 - 03:07 PM

Folks, it would be really helpful if you included the text of the card you are asking about - especially at this point where most of us only have access to spoilers. So often, the precise text is important to the answer, and it is a real hassle to have to go hunting through all the spoilers to find the card to make sure we're getting the text right and thus providing a correct answer. In short, don't assume everyone has memorized the spoiler lists. Include the text of the card. You'll get better answers, faster.

 

Case in point: the text of Hand's Judgment is: "Interrupt: When the effects of an opponent's event card would initiate, cancel those effect. X is that event's printed cost." The word "printed" is very important here, and it hasn't been mentioned at all to this point in the thread.

 

The entry in the RRG for "Printed" reads: "The word 'printed' refers to the text, characteristic, icon, or value that is physically printed on the card." So if Player #1 plays an event with a modified cost (think, Paxter Redwyne, for example) and Player #2 wants to cancel it with Hand's Judgment, the "X" for Player #2's Hand's Judgment is set to the unmodified cost of the event card represented by the physical ink on Player #1's card.

 

Now, plug in Hand's Judgment as Player #1's event. (There is nothing in Hand's Judgment's text that implies it cannot be used to cancel a cancel event.) Player #2's Hand's Judgment looks at the unmodified, physical ink on Player #1's event card in order to know what to set its own X to. What is sees is "X" on Player #1's event. You don't get to substitute the value that this X became when the cost for Player #1's event was determined because that is NOT the "value that is physically printed on the card." So, the printed value of this X is 0 - which is what Player #2 would therefore need to pay as a cost for his Hand's Judgment.

 

TL : DR - JCWamma is correct. Hand's Judgment #2 can cancel Hand's Judgment #1 for a cost of 0, no matter what Hand's Judgment #1 paid as a cost, because Hand's Judgment specifies printed cost, which is "X," not whatever the X on Hand's Judgement #1 was determined to be when it was initiated.

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#1
smeehee

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if i play an event (say printed cost 1) and my opponent uses hand of judgment to cancel it can i then use hand of judgment to cancel his cancel? and if so would i have to pay the same cost as my event(printed cost 1)?



#2
JCWamma

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The RRG defines X as being equal to zero - so not only can you cancel it, but you can cancel it for free. This is also true of The Things I Do For Love.


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#3
ingsve

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The RRG defines X as being equal to zero - so not only can you cancel it, but you can cancel it for free. This is also true of The Things I Do For Love.

No, that's not true.

 

Rules Reference about letter X: Unless specified by a card ability or granted player choice, the letter X is always equal to 0.

 

So when someone has played Hand of Judgement to cancel a card with a cost other than 0 then the X has taken on that new value by a card ability namely Hand of Judgements ability. This means that for cancelling Hand of Judgement with another Hand of Judgement the cost to do so is the cost of the first Hand of Judgement which is equal to the cost of the initial event that was cancelled.



#4
ktom

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✓  Best Answer

Folks, it would be really helpful if you included the text of the card you are asking about - especially at this point where most of us only have access to spoilers. So often, the precise text is important to the answer, and it is a real hassle to have to go hunting through all the spoilers to find the card to make sure we're getting the text right and thus providing a correct answer. In short, don't assume everyone has memorized the spoiler lists. Include the text of the card. You'll get better answers, faster.

 

Case in point: the text of Hand's Judgment is: "Interrupt: When the effects of an opponent's event card would initiate, cancel those effect. X is that event's printed cost." The word "printed" is very important here, and it hasn't been mentioned at all to this point in the thread.

 

The entry in the RRG for "Printed" reads: "The word 'printed' refers to the text, characteristic, icon, or value that is physically printed on the card." So if Player #1 plays an event with a modified cost (think, Paxter Redwyne, for example) and Player #2 wants to cancel it with Hand's Judgment, the "X" for Player #2's Hand's Judgment is set to the unmodified cost of the event card represented by the physical ink on Player #1's card.

 

Now, plug in Hand's Judgment as Player #1's event. (There is nothing in Hand's Judgment's text that implies it cannot be used to cancel a cancel event.) Player #2's Hand's Judgment looks at the unmodified, physical ink on Player #1's event card in order to know what to set its own X to. What is sees is "X" on Player #1's event. You don't get to substitute the value that this X became when the cost for Player #1's event was determined because that is NOT the "value that is physically printed on the card." So, the printed value of this X is 0 - which is what Player #2 would therefore need to pay as a cost for his Hand's Judgment.

 

TL : DR - JCWamma is correct. Hand's Judgment #2 can cancel Hand's Judgment #1 for a cost of 0, no matter what Hand's Judgment #1 paid as a cost, because Hand's Judgment specifies printed cost, which is "X," not whatever the X on Hand's Judgement #1 was determined to be when it was initiated.


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#5
ingsve

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Yes, you're right, having the card text in front of you would have been very useful.



#6
JCWamma

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Yeah, apologies for not giving the full text and reasoning, I was in a rush when I responded earlier and should have left it for someone else with more time to explain why.



#7
PBrennan

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If an OP is asking people to take time out of their day to help them with a rules question, I've always thought it a common courtesy to include all relevant card text to make that task as easy and quick as possible for them. It also makes the rules forum more useful for readers in general as they can grasp the import of the thread without having to look up cards elsewhere. Anyway, I'd be a fan of promoting that as a community expectation here.


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#8
ktom

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Anyway, I'd be a fan of promoting that as a community expectation here.


It is part of istaril's Forum Guidelines thread. It's just something we were very indulgent about not asking for in 1.0. It would be a good habit to get into for 2.0, though.
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#9
Crouton

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I don't disagree with ktom's explanation, but it's very unintuitive and I don't like it. I agree with it and the logic, but don't like it. If my opponent pays 4 gold to play 'The Things I Do For Love' on a character (X cost:  Challenges Action: Kneel your faction card to choose a character with printed cost X or lower controlled by an opponent and return it to it's owner's hand) I should have to pay 4 gold to cancel it. It's the spirit of the card and by paying 0 gold to cancel an event that cost my opponent 4 gold to play is very gamey. 


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#10
ktom

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I don't agree that it's the "spirit of the card." If they wanted you to have to pay exactly the same as your opponent to cancel the event, they would have said "cost" instead of "printed cost" on Hand's Judgment.

#11
HOROBOD

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[The letter “X”
Unless specified by a card ability or granted player
choice, the letter X is always equal to 0. For costs
involving the letter X, the value of X is defined by card
ability or player choice, after which the amount paid may
be modified by effects without altering the value of X.]

-RR p23

 

I have to disagree with you ktom. I've quoted above the only reference to a cost of X being equal to 0, and this is only assumed to be zero in the absence of a card ability or player choice defining its value.

 

It would the printed cost is X, since it is impossible to pay the letter "X" as printed, it has to be defined. And the rules state that a player choice or card ability is first able to define X, and in the absence of such X is equal to 0.

 

This fits with the "spirit of the game", and is a more literal interpretation of the rules reference dealing with X.



#12
Bomb

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@Horobod -

 

That is NOT what the printed cost is.  The cost of X is defined by the player choice or card ability.  The printed cost is the ink on the card.  That section in the RRG is telling you how to treat the letter X when there is no way to define it.  Since the printed cost of X is not a figure(it's just the letter X), it's by default defined as 0.  This is almost the entire point of the entry in the RRG.

 

From the RRG on Printed:

 

 

Printed
The word “printed” refers to the text, characteristic,
icon, or value that is physically printed on the card.


#13
ScionMattly

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Note that using "Printed Cost" also makes tracking the value to cancel easier. you do not have to remember if a loyal event was Fealty'd, or if Paxter reduced it, or what event you were cancelling. You're cancelling an X, X is 0, the end.



#14
HOROBOD

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Since the printed cost of X is not a figure(it's just the letter X), it's by default defined as 0.

 

Where in the rules are you getting this from? It's only found under the section that states "Unless specified by a card ability or granted player choice" which would clearly apply before X=0.

 

You can't say that player choice is unable to define the "printed cost", but a later section can define the "printed cost" as zero.

 

By your same logic this would not be valid.

 

Either, the player choice defines the "printed cost" in this instance, or the printed cost of X cannot be paid (since you cannot actually pay X) rendering events with cost X as uncancellable by The Hand's Judgement



#15
Masterdinadan

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You have to pay X to cancel an event with printed cost X.
If the printed cost is 1, you pay 1.

If the printers cost is X, you pay X. For the purpose of resolving this effect, X hasn't been defined so it is 0. It doesn't matter if another card has defined a different value for X because that doesn't change what is physically printed on the card.

#16
HOROBOD

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You've tried to argue that "The printed cost is the ink on the card."

 

Either you take this literally, and the cost is actually "X", meaning that there is no way to pay the cost to cancel cards that cost X with the Hand's Judgement

 

Or you look for a value to Define X. The rules state "For costs involving the letter X, the value of X is defined by card ability or player choice". When defining X you start with player choice and card abilities, and only if they fail to define X does X=0.

 

Once you choose to Define X, rather than accept it as a literal printed "X", you have to do so according to the rules by using the player's choice



#17
Bomb

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I quoted the rules for how "printed" is defined. In this case, "printed" is the physical value printed on the card.  The printed value is "X" for its printed cost.  The way "X" is determined has no bearing because whatever value may be calculated for "X" is not the physically printed value.  Therefore, when you are looking for the "printed cost", X is always treated as 0 because the printed cost is undefined.  "Printed text" can never ever be manipulated and is always taken literal.  Everything you are arguing is for the cost, not the printed cost. 

 

If you are still unconvinced, I recommend sending the rules question to FFG. 



#18
HOROBOD

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The rules clearly state "For costs [a printed cost is still a cost] involving the letter X, the value of X is defined by card ability or player choice, after which the amount paid may be modified by effects without altering the value of X". [bracketed words my clarification]

 

The physically printed value is X and "the value of X is defined by card ability or player choice"

 

Nothing about "Printed" prevents the definition of X in terms of a cost.

 

 

The purpose of the wording "printed cost" is to exclude modifiers from the cost of The Hand's Judgement, not to make it free when canceling a select few cards.

 

I seriously question the value you see in interpreting "printed cost" as zero rather than the amount paid (defined player choice). I only see it as detrimental to the game, against the spirit of the rules, and against the letter of the rules, which is why I am arguing so fervently. I appreciate your suggestion about bringing this up to FFG, which I will do, and I'll let you guys know what they have to say on the matter.



#19
Staton

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Here's the thing. This is the way that FFG has defined X as a printed cost for over a decade. I'm fairly certain Ktom is listed in the rules book as having helped with the rules. This is the way the rule will be interrupted.


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#20
ktom

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The purpose of the wording "printed cost" is to exclude modifiers from the cost of The Hand's Judgement, not to make it free when canceling a select few cards.

 

That's the point, though. The text defining "X" is a modifier of X. It modifies the cost of the event. So, as a modifier, it doesn't apply when determining the "printed" cost.

 

The reason the printed X is interpreted as 0 is because the entry on X - that you quoted - say that X is always equal to 0 unless something else is specifically defining it to be something else. As just mentioned, the text defining X on the original card is only modifying/defining X when determine the event's cost, not its printed cost. So, with nothing specifically defining the printed cost of X, you treat it as equal to 0 - just like the RRG entry on the letter X tells you to in the absence of a specific definition.

 

I have checked this with the designers and developers at FFG. It is the correct answer. But feel free to use the "rules questions" link in the customer service pages of the fantasyflightgames.com site to check with them yourself.


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