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Pervasive Toxemia + Mi-Go Warrior = Story Lock?

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#21
Obtuse

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I'm struggling to see how a card that disrupts and cancels a wound needs to be concerned with where the wound is coming from. But I'm (very) frequently wrong about CoC rules.

As for the August thing...costs are absolute are they not? Do this thing to do that thing. If you skip out on this thing you can no longer do that thing.

Can only have fun speculating until Damon gets back to us, but I suspect this combo will be green lighted.

#22
washme

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Blanking, bouncing, targeted wounding.  Don't really see this being an issue.  A challenge, yes, but not game breaking.

 

Trying to figure out Tut's combo.  It involved Urobourus, Ritual of Summoning, and Unscrupulous Acquisitionist?  If so, how did it work?

 

Urobourus, Ritual of Summoning with "Let's just say 1 Billion tokens", Professor George Angell.  I'm all ears to know how to stop this total BS.



#23
MagnusArcanis

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In my mind with enough arguing almost anything can sound plausible and/or implausible. Obviously it'll hit the faq before worlds in some fashion though even if it's just clarification.

#24
Obtuse

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Blanking, bouncing, targeted wounding. Don't really see this being an issue. A challenge, yes, but not game breaking.

Trying to figure out Tut's combo. It involved Urobourus, Ritual of Summoning, and Unscrupulous Acquisitionist? If so, how did it work?


My deck that Tut improved upon basically worked like this:

The infitine loop with uroborus and ritual of summoning to springboard infinite casting initate of huang hun, and then when you had their board clear of characters you could use unscrupulous acquisitionist combined with H.O.S.T. to drain all their domains (Tut added the acquisitionist). Since you play the cards off the ritual you can play them anytime unfettered by normal restrictions like only during your operations.

Sound brutal? Well it is if it's allowed to go off. But the combo is fragile at several points along the way, and is very luck of the draw.

#25
Obtuse

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Urobourus, Ritual of Summoning with "Let's just say 1 Billion tokens", Professor George Angell. I'm all ears to know how to stop this total BS.


Not sure what you were playing, but with Prof George down it gets harder to stop. Disrupting the combo from ever going off is key. The easiest way is if you're playing yog, pushed into the beyond can be played for free on an insane uroborus while he's trying to execute the infinite loop. Also some cards will remove cards from a discard pile or stop cards from coming out of a discard pile (atlantis, blacked winged one, snow graves).

A newer player, or even just a player who has never seen a deck like it can easily get caught off guard and then get wrecked by it.

Again, after lots of testing this deck doesn't seem to be able to win much more than half of its games. There are a lot of pieces to click into place and sometimes it's just luck drawing into them.

#26
MagnusArcanis

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Urobourus, Ritual of Summoning with "Let's just say 1 Billion tokens", Professor George Angell.  I'm all ears to know how to stop this total BS.


Win stories faster.
Hand discard
Snow graves
Discard pile disruption.
Rich widow.
Stalking hounds
Uroborous
Matthew Alexander
Dream lands fanatic.
Frozen time
Immune characters.
Eldrich nexus and other cards that add domains.

That's just of the top of my head.

Of course there are more options if George wasn't around too.

 

EDIT: Perpared Alienst

Flux Stabilizer

Ways to cheat in characters for free (Ultimate Thule/Hall of Champions)
That new Agency guy that turns off support cards.

.. I'm sure theres more.

 

Ultimate point though is to illustrate, that while I am too of the preference that this combo be broken up (though, likely for different reasons), I find it comparedable to characterless mill. A deck that... when you're not prepared for it, it will do well. When the meta is prepared for it... it'll have a much harder time winning. 


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#27
Obtuse

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My version was created when initiate was still restricted and I had to deal with dreamlands fanatics in every other deck I played.

I used the Wentathingy gug out of yog to create a mill loop with HOST and initiate/lord jeffrey farrington to combat this. There was potential to mill an absolutely absurd number of cards under "perfect storm" conditions.

Tut sped it up a bit adding The Groundskeeper but it still has issues of drawing into the cards he needed.

All Tom's answers are good. Any character that can bounce right back like Stalking Hound or Rich Window (to name the unrestricted options) shut down the infinite initiate bouncing.

#28
washme

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I was playing Explorers and it started out slow.  He had the combo working by turn 2 or 3.  He said he could cancel my Matthew Alexander.  Maybe I misunderstood, but it seemed like every time I tried to do anything from bring a character into play, to play a Support he bounced George and I was stopped.  I'm a very new player, so to me there was no way around this thing.



#29
Obtuse

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If he told you he could cancel Matthew that was a mistake and not correct. Technically he could cancel Matthew's enter play ability, which would return him to your hand. However, the window would still be open for Matthew's response and there he is back in your hand so you could just use it again.

Not sure exactly what happened but sounds like some confusion on timing.
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#30
Yipe

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A few years back, my brother took an Initiate of Huang Hung + Uroborus + Ritual of Summonings deck to a local tournament (he called it Culebras Libre).  When it works it shuts most everything down, and can make for a less than fun play experience for someone who's never experienced an infinite loop before.  However, it's unreliable (snow graves, anything that steals Uroborus, Prepared Alienst, any characters that jump into play for free, etc).  It can also be slow (MoM was critical to stall, though he wasn't restricted at the time).  With Initiate off the restricted list and the addition of Prof. Agnell, I may have to revisit this deck.

 

Another option is to use Khopesh for control and getting your serpents in the discard pile, and then pack your deck with a variety of AOs (as resource matching doesn't matter).  I could also see squeezing in Gustaf for some extra card draw to help ensure you get things going.

 

Anyway, the moment Damon emails me back I'll post his answer in this thread and the rulings sub-forum.  I don't expect to hear anything until tomorrow.



#31
Jhaelen

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I have a confession to make: I no longer enjoy playing CoC - at least when playing with/against tournament-grade decks.

 

This goes back (at least) as far as the Sleeper box set. I cannot help but feel that CoC tournament-level play has degenerated to a point where it was when the CCG era ended:

Games are no longer decided by skill but by luck of the draw and/or who gets her killer combo out first (without the opponent being able to immediately cancel/destroy it).

 

Yes, there's always plenty of ways to prevent each of these deck strategies, but you need to have the right cards in your deck, have them in your hand, and be able to play them at the right time.

I used to never give up, fighting until the last story was won by my opponent, but these days I don't bother anymore. Even a simply Cthulhu Temple/Cultist deck is unbeatable if I don't draw either of my six support destruction cards or my three blanking cards.

Lately games are often effectively over after turn two. If a player is prevented from comitting to stories two turns in a row, that's a game over. How is this fun? There's no longer any game. It's a coin toss.

 

My last straw is draft play. If I don't enjoy that either, I'll bow out of the game after the Hastur box. It's a good time to stop buying expansions, whether there will be new expansions or not (okay, I'd still like to see a new Silver Twilight box... ;)).

 

This thread's discussion is just another nail in the coffin for me.


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#32
washme

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^ This! I'm so glad I'm not alone on this.

#33
FunkeXMix

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hmm...maybe the game will be more about knowing what cards can pull off nasty shenanigans in the future and use the 'Seer of the Gate' to try to prevent them for example? But what do I know, never played such high level play before.



#34
dboeren

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A ruling at a tournament is of necessity an off-the-cuff sort of answer, without time to think it over in detail and examine what else it might affect.  My expectation is that they will not allow Mi-go Warrior to create a lock, whether that means finding a way to rule that it doesn't work OR issuing an errata of some sort.  If there are multiple wound canceling cards that work on an opponent's character then it may be easiest to just errata Toxemia itself to include "this wound cannot be cancelled".  But one way or another, I don't think they will want this in the game.

 

Funky Oroborus combos have happened before, I'm not fond of that card or really anything that goes infinite.  They're asking for trouble eventually.  I don't know if there will be any errata for this one, right now it's got too many moving parts which makes it unreliable.  Personally I'd nip it in the bud though.


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#35
Obtuse

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The Uroborus thing is filthy, but I don't think it speaks negatively on the overall health of the game. Does it need adjusting? Not for me to decide, but my opinion is probably. A simple "Limit 1" errata on Uroborus fixes the whole problem and still leaves more conventional serpent decks intact. I wasn't around for the Logan combo deck but I think the uroborus combo might be similar? Lots of pieces to the combo and heinous if it goes off? The big difference is that the card pool was smaller and fewer answers existed to the Logan deck I suspect.

As for the comment that this game is all luck and whoever gets their "combo" out first wins...I don't think anything could be further from the truth. Do some nasty lockdown combos exist? Sure. But so do plenty of answers. CoC I feel is far more skill intensive than any other card game I've ever played. Is everything perfect? Hell no, but the game to me is in a pretty healthy state right now. There aren't just one or two dominant decks, and all kinds of things are tournament viable right now.

Competitive gaming, CoC not excluded, is a vipers nest. If you signed up for CoC at gencon you signed up for the vipers nest. The fact that we enjoy a smaller, friendly, and tight knit scene shouldn't confuse you into thinking competitive tournaments won't be cutthroat. I like to see everyone enjoy themselves and would encourage people to keep signing up for tournaments, but if the enjoyment isn't there you shouldn't force it. Personally though, I love getting wrecked in new and inventive ways. Call me a sadist.
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#36
NuFenix

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Sadist.

Someone had to say it.
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#37
blinovitch

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Masochist, maybe?


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#38
Daevar

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I love getting wrecked in new and inventive ways. Call me a sadist.

I'd call that a masochist :P

 

Personal pleasures aside, combo decks have the same raison d'être like aggro or heavy control decks in a card game. If anything, I'm happy stuff like this exists in the game. It's nice to get your control deck rolling, but if you're getting steamrolled by a combo (if it involves infinite loops or not isn't really important, I think) one or two turns before you can settle things in your favor, well, I guess an aggro deck would have been the better call, and from what I can gather from the results, there's no combo deck at the top, so what's to hate about it?


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#39
dboeren

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As for the comment that this game is all luck and whoever gets their "combo" out first wins...I don't think anything could be further from the truth. Do some nasty lockdown combos exist? Sure. But so do plenty of answers. CoC I feel is far more skill intensive than any other card game I've ever played. Is everything perfect? Hell no, but the game to me is in a pretty healthy state right now. There aren't just one or two dominant decks, and all kinds of things are tournament viable right now.

 

+1.  The metagame is wide open right now, I'm willing to venture that you could pick any two factions at random and build a highly competitive deck using those.  I'm sure different people have wildly different definitions of what constitutes a "combo deck", but I think only a moderate percentage of decks are combo decks.


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#40
Yipe

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So far no response from FFG.  They usually get back to me within a few hours, probably just Gencon lag...