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Catelyn Stark (Core) vs Card Abilities

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Best Answer ktom , 05 August 2015 - 12:27 PM

However, I am still not sure about the Keywords in general, since the Rules Reference states they are card abilities which are triggered/executed optionally by the player.

 

The RRG says, "The initiation of any keyword which uses the word 'may' in its keyword description is optional. The application of all other keywords is mandatory."

 

Do not read "initiation" as a synonym for "trigger." "Initiation" is the generic term for the process of checking play restrictions, paying costs, choosing targets, etc. "Trigger" is a specific term that describes and applies to triggered effects, only. Triggered effects are defined as abilities that use a bold timing precursor word to dictate when they can be initiated by a player. An ability or game effect may "initiate" without being "triggered" - by a player or by the game.

 

So keywords do not meet the definition of "triggered ability," even if they can be optional (in the sense that a player may elect to do nothing when they get to the point in the game where the keyword is resolved). As a result, Catelyn does not prevent their use (with the exception of Ambush, the definition of which dictates that it is used as a player action - which is synonymous with "triggered ability," according to the RRG entry on actions).

 

Catelyn's text targets card abilities which are triggered by the player (opponent). 

 

 

Note that Catelyn doesn't "target" anything. Targets are denoted by the word "choose" in this game. Since her ability does not use the word "choose," it doesn't have a target.

 

Further, note that Catelyn interacts with the opponent/player, stopping them from being able to use triggered abilities. She does not directly interact with the abilities or the cards they are on. This ends up being important in the long run.

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43 replies to this topic

#1
keranov

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Catelyn Stark
House Tully. Lady. The Seven.
While Catelyn Stark is participating in a challenge, your opponents cannot trigger card abilities.
 
vs.
 
AGoT 2.0 Rules Reference: Abilities: An ability is the special game text that a card contributes to the game. Card abilities fall into one of the following types: actions, constant abilities, interrupts, keywords, reactions, or when revealed abilities.
The initiation of action, interrupt, and reaction abilities is optional. The word “may” also incorporates a player option into the resolution of an ability. The player who controls the card on which an optional ability exists determines whether or not he or she wishes to use that ability at the appropriate time.
The application or initiation of the following types of abilities is mandatory: constant abilities, when revealed abilities, forced interrupt abilities, and forced reaction abilities.
The initiation of any keyword which uses the word “may” in its keyword description is optional. The application of all other keywords is mandatory.
 
 
We have already seen a couple of rules questions for Catelyn Stark, so I'd like to shed some light in general on her effect and confirm my understanding is correct.
Catelyn's text targets card abilities which are triggered by the player (opponent). From my understanding, this means that she stops only such card abilities that are voluntarily triggered by a player.
 
From the Rules Reference, voluntarily triggered card abilities which Catelyn will stop are action, interrupt, and reaction, which are all optional (include the word may). This includes keywords which use the word may, such as Intimidate, Stealth, Ambush, InsightPillage, Renown.
 
What Catelyn will not stop are constant abilities, when revealed abilities, forced interrupt abilities, and forced reaction abilities. This includes non-optional keywords.

Edited by keranov, 05 August 2015 - 12:15 PM.

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#2
Shuwar

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I wouldn't say she blocks keywords (they are not triggered abilities, right?). Otherwise, I'm shocked :unsure:
(edit: Renown is optional, too)



#3
keranov

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I wouldn't say she blocks keywords (they are not triggered abilities, right?). Otherwise, I'm shocked :unsure:
(edit: Renown is optional, too)

 

You are correct about Renown: Renown is a challenge resolution keyword. After a

player wins a challenge, each participating character
with the renown keyword he or she controls may gain
1 power.
 
I apparently missed the word "may" at the end of the Rules Reference. I will try to edit my original post.

However, I am still not sure about the Keywords in general, since the Rules Reference states some of them are card abilities which are triggered/executed optionally by the player.


#4
istaril

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She definitely does not block those keywords; they initiate by the game (evidence: present in the framework chart, and FP determines the order they initiate) in their respective framework action steps - they actually aren't optional. What is optional is whether you choose to take advantage of the benefit they confer. In other words, Pillage always happens in the appropriate step (most "Challenge Resolution Keywords"), but whether the player controlling the pillage cards chooses to discard cards from his opponent's deck is up to him.

 

Catelyn does not prevent Pillage, Insight, Stealth, Renown, Intimidate.

 

The only exception to this is ambush, which is "as an action". Ktom and I are currently having a quick chat, as we've interpreted that a little differently, and we're ironing out the kinks.


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#5
ktom

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✓  Best Answer

However, I am still not sure about the Keywords in general, since the Rules Reference states they are card abilities which are triggered/executed optionally by the player.

 

The RRG says, "The initiation of any keyword which uses the word 'may' in its keyword description is optional. The application of all other keywords is mandatory."

 

Do not read "initiation" as a synonym for "trigger." "Initiation" is the generic term for the process of checking play restrictions, paying costs, choosing targets, etc. "Trigger" is a specific term that describes and applies to triggered effects, only. Triggered effects are defined as abilities that use a bold timing precursor word to dictate when they can be initiated by a player. An ability or game effect may "initiate" without being "triggered" - by a player or by the game.

 

So keywords do not meet the definition of "triggered ability," even if they can be optional (in the sense that a player may elect to do nothing when they get to the point in the game where the keyword is resolved). As a result, Catelyn does not prevent their use (with the exception of Ambush, the definition of which dictates that it is used as a player action - which is synonymous with "triggered ability," according to the RRG entry on actions).

 

Catelyn's text targets card abilities which are triggered by the player (opponent). 

 

 

Note that Catelyn doesn't "target" anything. Targets are denoted by the word "choose" in this game. Since her ability does not use the word "choose," it doesn't have a target.

 

Further, note that Catelyn interacts with the opponent/player, stopping them from being able to use triggered abilities. She does not directly interact with the abilities or the cards they are on. This ends up being important in the long run.


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#6
keranov

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Thank you ktom! I need to be more careful when reading the RRG in the future!



#7
ktom

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As a result, Catelyn does not prevent their use (with the exception of Ambush, the definition of which dictates that it is used as a player action - which is synonymous with "triggered ability," according to the RRG entry on actions).

 

Note that istaril and I received confirmation from FFG. Catelyn does not stop any keywords - including Ambush.

Triggered abilities MUST have a bold timing word at the beginning of the ability. If they don't have that, they are not triggered abilities, and thus cannot be stopped by Catelyn.

 

I will completely own the mistake on Ambush and misinterpreting the definition of Ambush as a player action (and the definition of "action") to presuppose a triggered ability. It may be a hold-over from 1.0 in my thinking, where the definition of Ambush does include a description with a bold timing word - kind of like duplicates are defined with the "Interrupt:..." trigger here in 2.0.


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#8
istaril

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If it helps contextualize it, keep in mind that there are several other player actions which are *not* triggered effects - the typical example is marshalling a card.



#9
stevehouston

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So as a good example here, one that I "lost" to tonight when teaching a friend with the core set decks, before thinking about it more--Catelyn does NOT prevent Obara Sand from defending in a Power Challenge.

#10
uPoHu4Hu9

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Note that istaril and I received confirmation from FFG. Catelyn does not stop any keywords - including Ambush.

Triggered abilities MUST have a bold timing word at the beginning of the ability. If they don't have that, they are not triggered abilities, and thus cannot be stopped by Catelyn.

 

I will completely own the mistake on Ambush and misinterpreting the definition of Ambush as a player action (and the definition of "action") to presuppose a triggered ability. It may be a hold-over from 1.0 in my thinking, where the definition of Ambush does include a description with a bold timing word - kind of like duplicates are defined with the "Interrupt:..." trigger here in 2.0.

 

Hi, ktom, I just want to point out that the duplicates example might be misleading, since the effect of the duplicate is considered a "triggered game ability" (shouldn't it be "game triggered"?), and Catelyn wouldn't stop a player from using it.



#11
ktom

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Hi, ktom, I just want to point out that the duplicates example might be misleading, since the effect of the duplicate is considered a "triggered game ability" (shouldn't it be "game triggered"?), and Catelyn wouldn't stop a player from using it.

 

Yes and no.

 

- It is true that dupes are defined as "game abilities," but they are still triggered by the player. It is the player that decides when they initiate; only something like Forced Interrupts are considered to be triggered "by the game" because they initiate at a certain time whether a player wants them to or not.

 

- That said, Catelyn does not prevent the use of dupes because she specifically stops players from triggering card abilities. Players are allowed to trigger as many non-card abilities (like dupes) as they like.

 

So it is the "card abilities" part of Catelyn's text, not the "opponents cannot..." part, that makes dupes off limits to Cat's ability. If she were worded something like, "While Catelyn Stark is participating in a challenge, opponents cannot trigger abilities," she would stop dupes. (See how important the exact wording of the cards becomes in some of these situations?)


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#12
uPoHu4Hu9

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So it is the "card abilities" part of Catelyn's text, not the "opponents cannot..." part, that makes dupes off limits to Cat's ability. If she were worded something like, "While Catelyn Stark is participating in a challenge, opponents cannot trigger abilities," she would stop dupes. (See how important the exact wording of the cards becomes in some of these situations?)

 

Ah, that's why it's "game abilities", got it. Just to be sure, the triggered abilities on Plot cards and Agenda cards are "card abilities" and would be stopped by Cat, right?



#13
istaril

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Ah, that's why it's "game abilities", got it. Just to be sure, the triggered abilities on Plot cards and Agenda cards are "card abilities" and would be stopped by Cat, right?

 

... Yes and no. Yes in that they ARE card abilities - no in that most of them are not initiated by your opponent, but rather by a game (e.g. "When Revealed" is compulsory, and the order determined by the FP). However, it *would* prevent your opponent from initiating the triggered effect that stands a character on the plot "Power Behind the Throne"


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#14
Zouavez

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What happens if Asha is attacking and Catelyn is defending? Does Asha stand after the challenge (since Catelyn is no longer participating)?

 

"While Catelyn Stark is participating in a challenge, your opponents cannot trigger card abilities."

 

"Reaction: After you win an unopposed challenge in which Asha Greyjoy is participating, stand her."

 

Or is it still untriggerable because characters stop participating only in 4.2.6?



#15
ktom

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RRG, p. 29: "4.2.6 Challenge ends: This step formalizes the end of the challenge. All characters that were participating in the challenge are no longer participating. Proceed to the action window between framework steps 4.1 and 4.2."

 

Catelyn is considered to be "participating" through all the other challenge resolution steps (determining winner, gaining challenge bonuses, resolving claim effects, and processing challenge resolution keywords). As such, the opponent will be unable to trigger interrupts and reactions to any of those steps.


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#16
Zouavez

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RRG, p. 29: "4.2.6 Challenge ends: This step formalizes the end of the challenge. All characters that were participating in the challenge are no longer participating. Proceed to the action window between framework steps 4.1 and 4.2."

 

Catelyn is considered to be "participating" through all the other challenge resolution steps (determining winner, gaining challenge bonuses, resolving claim effects, and processing challenge resolution keywords). As such, the opponent will be unable to trigger interrupts and reactions to any of those steps.

 

Thank you! It just seemed counterintuitive to have characters participating in a challenge that was already over. I guess the challenge isn't over after someone wins.



#17
Masterdinadan

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Although it's perfectly clear in the RRG, "when you win/lose" responses seem to trip up a lot of players.

In one game my opponent was under the impression he would trigger renown (and win the game) before I could play Like Warm Rain. But the RRG is clear that the "when you lose" response is before keywords, so the renowned character was killed and the game continued.

By the way, it is rather important that characters are still participating during the "when you win/lose" reaction window. If they aren't participating at that point, Like Warm Rain would never have a valid target!

#18
ktom

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In one game my opponent was under the impression he would trigger renown (and win the game) before I could play Like Warm Rain. But the RRG is clear that the "when you lose" response is before keywords, so the renowned character was killed and the game continued.

 

This is something 1.0 players will need some time to get used to. In 1.0, reactions to any step of the "resolve challenge" process had to wait until ALL steps had been completed. In 1.0, that character would have claimed renown and won the game before you could trigger your reaction to losing the challenge to kill it.



#19
Shuwar

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What happens if Asha is attacking and Catelyn is defending? Does Asha stand after the challenge (since Catelyn is no longer participating)?

 

"While Catelyn Stark is participating in a challenge, your opponents cannot trigger card abilities."

 

"Reaction: After you win an unopposed challenge in which Asha Greyjoy is participating, stand her."

 

Or is it still untriggerable because characters stop participating only in 4.2.6?

Just a side note - look at the wording on the cards; Asha's skill triggers after you win a challenge in which she is participating. This already implies that the challenge still lasts (and characters are still in it) at the moment of 'after you win' Reactions. Though I agree with ktom (shall I use capitals...? xD) this may be problematic for 1.0 players at first, personally I find it quite intuitive. Everything according to a given challenge happens during that challenge's frame; when it ends, well... it ends :) You can't react any more.



#20
Zouavez

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Just a side note - look at the wording on the cards; Asha's skill triggers after you win a challenge in which she is participating. This already implies that the challenge still lasts (and characters are still in it) at the moment of 'after you win' Reactions. Though I agree with ktom (shall I use capitals...? xD) this may be problematic for 1.0 players at first, personally I find it quite intuitive. Everything according to a given challenge happens during that challenge's frame; when it ends, well... it ends :) You can't react any more.

 

I see what you are saying, thanks. I was incorrectly thinking that the challenge was over after someone won which might be more intuitive, but not accurate.