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Summer Is Coming - Ep. 5 - Game of Thrones 2.0 Podcast/Video

* * * * * 1 votes Summer is Coming TinyGrimes Podcast

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#1
TinyGrimes

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Episode 5 of Summer is Coming has been posted. This week Tiny and Neil discuss initiative. They also review Stark. Finally, Neil crushes Tiny as always in the card knowledge challenge.

 


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#2
istaril

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I've been building a variety of approaches to beat the Bara fealty deck (and some help/suggestions/lists from players like JCwamma and Pulseglazer), and am centering in on 2-3 promising candidates. It took a while, I admit, but I don't think the Fealty is as unassailable as you think it is :P. After a steady 10 straight losses with first drafts I've scrapped or iterated on, I'm now at 3 straight wins (against a better player than I am). I wouldn't call anti-bara decks solved yet, but I think they exist and I think a few more iterations of this latest version will give me a + matchup vs Bara Fealty. Without losing to every other deck out there.

 

It's a meta-puzzle, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

 

Oh, and I disagree about Martell/Bara being the two factions who care more about initiative, or at least not because  of their "go first" "go second" cards, which are a bit misleading (Martell has loads of cards that want to go first; Dornish Paramour, Obara, Caellote, Dawn on a dayne, and it can be significantly easier to get an UO going second over going first as GJ). I think Bara, and NW (and possibly Stark) as a general rule, care more about initiative.

 

Edit: How is Summer a she?



#3
JoeFromCincinnati

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You make a good point about Stark being a kill deck and they run best when uninterrupted, but that is exactly why I think they have a very dim future in this game.

 

Military is probably the worst icon in the game. At least right now. With the core set so small, everyone is running 3 copies of their best cards, and many people are running a few of bodyguards as well, particularly factions that are built around 1 or 2 characters, like Baratheon, Targaryen and Lannister.

 

My first deck that I built was a Stark Banner of the Kraken deck and, no matter how good it looked on paper, it was infinitely frustrating to play because the game is so flooded with dupes and bodyguards. 

 

For reference, imagine if there was a card that could be substituted for other claim types. A card that isn't part of your deck that you can choose to discard rather than lose a random card via intrigue. Or a fake power token that could be transferred in a power challenge, but isn't worth any power.

 

Once more cards are released and more characters come out, people may run fewer dupes because they can't fit 3x of 4 or 5 cards into their deck. But for most decks I have a hard time believing they'll stop running their best guys at 3x.

 

Bodyguards cost 1 gold and dupes cost zero gold. So even a claim 2 military challenge could net you a 1 gold advantage. Not to mention, many decks run 3x 1 gold reducers and 2 or 3x 2 gold bicon.

 

Whereas an intrigue can drop their game clinching card from their hand, or power can just plain win the game for you.

 

Maybe they'll come out with more hijinks to make killing more efficient, like an event that costs 0 or 1 gold and lets you choose who to claim. But until that card comes out, I have a hard time believing a pure military deck will succeed in the long run.

 

And I extend that belief to Greyjoy as well. They are at least more reliable, with their stealth and unopposed shenanigans, but they are relying solely on military claim and hoping against hope that that will get them through the day. A lot of people are praising Greyjoy but I haven't seen a particularly successful one yet.



#4
scantrell24

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Greyjoy's success comes from power challenges, not military.
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#5
JoeFromCincinnati

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Greyjoy's success comes from power challenges, not military.

Well then maybe that's why they are working and Stark isn't, haha.



#6
mnBroncos

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Greyjoy's success comes from power challenges, not military.

 

Yes and no I suppose. Right now in 2.0 Power challenges are more important in 2.0 than it ever was in 1.0 since I been playing. So power in general is more important, but Greyjoy can get a lot of success with military challenges since can stealth pass the chump block and claim as well as the stealth makes them good at playing Put to the Sword. 

 

 

Well then maybe that's why they are working and Stark isn't, haha.

 

Stark isn't working? I have seen a lot of good Stark decks and it has probably been my 2nd or 3rd best deck. 


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#7
JoeFromCincinnati

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Yes and no I suppose. Right now in 2.0 Power challenges are more important in 2.0 than it ever was in 1.0 since I been playing. So power in general is more important, but Greyjoy can get a lot of success with military challenges since can stealth pass the chump block and claim as well as the stealth makes them good at playing Put to the Sword. 

 

 

 

Stark isn't working? I have seen a lot of good Stark decks and it has probably been my 2nd or 3rd best deck. 

In my play group, Stark isn't doing anything productive.

 

Maybe our Stark players are building it wrong, but it is so easy to disrupt and so easy to push off focus.

 

And that isn't so much Stark as it is military in general.

 

Most decks in our play group are running 3x of most or all the uniques in the deck, plus 2 or 3 bodyguards.

 

Military challenges are just a waste of strength in a lot of cases because they have no tangible effect on the board.

 

Given the option of going all in and getting an intrigue challenge off and possibly discarding a Rob or Stannis is a much better thing to do than to discard a 0 cost dupe or a 1 cost body guard.

 

Of course, this is in the context of games that only last 5 or 6 turns.

 

I guess if you're playing 10 turns, you can chip away at the scuds, body guards, dupes and little shits like Davos who never die.

 

But your opponent is probably spending their time with intrigue challenges and power challenges, making you top deck each turn and getting closer and closer to victory.

 

I just don't see the value in building a deck solely around military. You basically give yourself until turn 2 to have overwhelming board control that cannot be shifted by wildfire assault.

 

Long story short, military feels like a great way to win when your opponent gets a terrible starting hand. Otherwise, you need to stick with power and intrigue challenges.



#8
mnBroncos

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Stark needs to play x3 Ice and x3 Put to the Sword. Military is significantly stronger when you pick who dies. 


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#9
istaril

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There are tricks to making Ice (and military effects in general) more reliable; I tend to use Fortified Position on the turn I play Ice - it screens my character from interference, and can buy me a Melisandre kill. Sadly, the limitation on stark characters makes it a bit touchy to 'safely' void a Consolidation of Power, even with the Str boost (poor Arya/Knight of the Tumblestone), but interestingly enough, that same fortified position allows Ice to go on Summer/Vanguard of the North/Grey Wind - so it's been a favourite play of mine. Also, you don't necessarily need to strip away dupes; sometimes just functionally increasing your claim gives you the opportunity to finish off the duped character with Marched.

 

That's not to say that military is super reliable, or isn't an early-game ploy, but that it still has some very satisfying moments.


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#10
JoeFromCincinnati

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Stark needs to play x3 Ice and x3 Put to the Sword. Military is significantly stronger when you pick who dies. 

Ideally, yes.

 

But 3 gold is an awful lot for an attachment that needs to be discarded.

And Put to the Sword is another card that can be disrupted relatively easily.

 

I get what military is trying to. I'm just saying that right now there isn't very reliable point and click kill right now. Once more is around, at a relatively low cost (1 cost and unique to Stark for fealty, perhaps?), they could begin to wreak havoc.

 

But right now, they always seem to fall pretty short. I could be wrong. I have never been to a tournament yet, nor am I, by any means, a top tier player.

 

But I just see all the weaknesses in that faction.

 

In games that I've gotten Sansa out, I can keep up in Power for most of the match, but if I don't see Sansa, I have a very hard time getting any power unless I completely ditch military challenges, which is the entire point of the faction right now.



#11
mnBroncos

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I use to hate Ice, honestly for the longest time I avoid putting any in my deck....but wow is it really strong it is absolutely worth 3 gold. Stark is a weird faction because it feels like it be the most straight forward faction with just trying to attack military hard but it really isn't that way there is a lot of key plays you got to make even though it is an aggressive faction. Also, having Ned and Robb two of the best counters to Bara is a very nice thing. 



#12
Vanzig

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Ice is a lot better than Put to the Sword in every way but cost, so much so that it very much justifies +1 extra gold cost.

 

PttS 2 gold, no bonuses to strength or making challenges any easier at all to win, must win by 5+ on the attack, no value on defense.

 

Ice is 3 gold, +2 strength forever until you get an extra kill with it (win-win), kills without winning by 5, kills on attack, kills on defense.

 

Ice would be a basically given auto-include with raving 5-star reviews if it had any equivalent of Tyrion Lannister's ability to make PttS free.

Tyrion gives 2-4 gold per turn basically effortlessly for events (Do an intrigue, gain 2g then do your military and sword down an extra enemy), but there isn't an equivalent that makes Ice affordable to play every turn without hampering your marshalling phase.

 

What Ice needs is a Mikken the blacksmith card or something else that combos economically with acquiring Ice. Something like a reverse Shipwright that is constructive. 1 mil strength, 2g claim-soaker. Kneel Mikken to reduce the cost of your next Weapon by 2. (or Stark Weapon if desired)

It's bad enough Stark started missing 1 useful location because how much the wolfswood is garbage. Whereas everyone else gets 2 good ones. They just didn't get a 2nd utility source to make up for that mistake yet.

 

 

@Tiny, you keep taunting us talking about your list but not posting it. If you don't want  to release, can you just private message me the text list export?
We've been finding bara definitely in tier 1, but I kill them very often (50-50 or 40-60) with my greyjoy+banner decks and I need to know what few cards are different in yours that have such a different ratio.

I won't post your list up here, but I can't see if my bara killers are really fixing the meta if the real problem is still a secret.



#13
TinyGrimes

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I actually recorded a video today of the decklist. I will post it to YouTube tomorrow.


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#14
drakk

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It's bad enough Stark started missing 1 useful location because how much the wolfswood is garbage. Whereas everyone else gets 2 good ones. 

 

Dothraki Sea



#15
Vanzig

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Dothraki Sea

Oh yeah, I could've sworn there was a second but it's hard to remember things that're never used.

 

Targ's fine with only 1 effective location in core because they have great counters to 3 of the 4 big things in 2.0

 

- Milk of the Poppy: entitlement-dany's dragon buffs ignore milk completely

 

- Dupes/Bodyguard/Saves: dracarys is the strongest anti-dupe anti-bodyguard anti-save card in core.

 

- Stealth: burn is the strongest anti-stealth counter for 1-5str stealthers, which is all but 2 or 3 stealth in game (Balon and Dany I believe). They send their expensive multi-life character in stealth, you don't defend at all, but burning them to a crisp prevents the entire challenge, saves your claim and now they don't even get unopposed power or card draw or to activate unopposed We Do Not Sow. Theon goes down automatically no matter Risen being played. Asha goes down automatically unless they have risen, while you have no hand's judgment and no standing Dany to give -1str.
 

The thing I consider them not having a cost-efficient answer to

- Kneel: sacrificing the household helper girls (but that self-claims your board and gold) and by illyrio spending 2g per stand (ouch.) The dragon's ability thankfully doesn't stand Dany unless she's already standing to declare an attack first.

Looking at Stark. They're missing #1 anti-milk #2 anti-dupes #3 anti-stealth, but they've got #4 standing covered completely. Unfortunately, 1-of-4 isn't gonna put someone in tier 1, probably not even in tier 2.



#16
drakk

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Definitely wasn't making a point about Starks awesomeness or anything, just helping you remember Dothraki Sea :P



#17
ooo

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Ideally, yes.

 

But 3 gold is an awful lot for an attachment that needs to be discarded.

And Put to the Sword is another card that can be disrupted relatively easily.

 

I get what military is trying to. I'm just saying that right now there isn't very reliable point and click kill right now. Once more is around, at a relatively low cost (1 cost and unique to Stark for fealty, perhaps?), they could begin to wreak havoc.

 

But right now, they always seem to fall pretty short. I could be wrong. I have never been to a tournament yet, nor am I, by any means, a top tier player.

 

But I just see all the weaknesses in that faction.

 

In games that I've gotten Sansa out, I can keep up in Power for most of the match, but if I don't see Sansa, I have a very hard time getting any power unless I completely ditch military challenges, which is the entire point of the faction right now.

 

You're underrating just how hard Stark can murder characters.  They can murder A LOT of dudes and military is a huge deal, yes even though duplicates you'll get there in the end.  You're aiming to kill at least 2 characters per turn, but what really bites deepest is when you manage to get in like a Claim 2 + PTTS/Grey Wind/Ice and then have Marched to the Wall as your plot next time.  That's 4 characters gone and usually a board wipe from which the opponent can't recover.

And for 3 gold Ice is fine.  2 would be FAR too cheap for a PTTS that boosts strength and doesn't require you to be attacking or to win by 5 - it's correctly priced and underrated.

http://thronesdb.com/deck/view/1752
 



#18
ToucanPlay

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There are tricks to making Ice (and military effects in general) more reliable; I tend to use Fortified Position on the turn I play Ice - it screens my character from interference, and can buy me a Melisandre kill. Sadly, the limitation on stark characters makes it a bit touchy to 'safely' void a Consolidation of Power, even with the Str boost (poor Arya/Knight of the Tumblestone), but interestingly enough, that same fortified position allows Ice to go on Summer/Vanguard of the North/Grey Wind - so it's been a favourite play of mine. Also, you don't necessarily need to strip away dupes; sometimes just functionally increasing your claim gives you the opportunity to finish off the duped character with Marched.

 

That's not to say that military is super reliable, or isn't an early-game ploy, but that it still has some very satisfying moments.

 

This sounds really clever.

 

It also rings true with an idea that I've been discovering (maybe it's old news for eveyone else): In this core set enviroment, it seems that the way to build decks is to pick a strategy, and go balls deep in on it. At first I tried splashing some cards in my decks, maybe with a bit of a 1.0 mentality, but I found a lot more success when I simply cut all of my 1x cards, and just played 3x of my main cards, and fully committed to the strategy.

 

Then again, maybe it's old news for everyone :)

 

 

Yes and no I suppose. Right now in 2.0 Power challenges are more important in 2.0 than it ever was in 1.0 since I been playing. So power in general is more important, but Greyjoy can get a lot of success with military challenges since can stealth pass the chump block and claim as well as the stealth makes them good at playing Put to the Sword. 

 

Do you run PttS on GJ? I find that I ussually have a small board, and GJ characters don't really have a huge amount of str, which makes that 5 str hard to reach. And saving the 2 gold...I dunno, I just think GJ has more reliable strategies I guess. Unless of course you are bannering Lanni and getting the gold from Tyrion. Then it might work better.



#19
mnBroncos

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Yes with Stark and Greyjoy a lot of the times I am bannering with Lannister for Tyrion. Greyjoy also needs less people to play put to the sword because of the Stealth. Also, Balon alone will get to trigger it 80 percent of the time. 



#20
ooo

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This sounds really clever.

 

It also rings true with an idea that I've been discovering (maybe it's old news for eveyone else): In this core set enviroment, it seems that the way to build decks is to pick a strategy, and go balls deep in on it. At first I tried splashing some cards in my decks, maybe with a bit of a 1.0 mentality, but I found a lot more success when I simply cut all of my 1x cards, and just played 3x of my main cards, and fully committed to the strategy.

 

Then again, maybe it's old news for everyone :)

 

 

Yeah, that's largely the way to go.  You go all-in and overwhelm an aspect of the opponent's play.  1x is 1.0 thinking, 3x is the way to go.







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