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US Nationals video shows winning Eldorath player repeatedly drew 3 cards in the HQ phases of finals and semi-finals.


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#581
selderane

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Does FFG have the staff to put a judge at every table? Not really. I think we're all just grasping to make the good the perfect. The fact of the matter is, I think, is the system is as good as it can be if actual humans are involved. That means calls will be made we don't like, resources will be thin, and there will always be a reason to complain.

Someone cheated, broke the community trust, and that stings. And it'll sting the next time and the time after that. All that can be done now is that FFG does its best to balance the scales and we, as players, remember that vigilance is an unfortunate necessity.

I do wonder why FFG hasn't said anything yet...

#582
divinityofnumber

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They don't need to staff every tournament table. They could very easily do random deck checking. You randomly select a few table numbers, hover in the area, and when you notice that they just finished a game, before they put their decks away, you compare their decks to their deck lists and check for restricted or banned things. 


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#583
FireSoCold

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They don't need to staff every tournament table. They could very easily do random deck checking. You randomly select a few table numbers, hover in the area, and when you notice that they just finished a game, before they put their decks away, you compare their decks to their deck lists and check for restricted or banned things. 

 

How would this keep me from drawing three cards when I'm supposed to draw two?



#584
selderane

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I dunno, feels like the same security theater we see at the TSA.  It serves the function of making people who don't know better safe, but really doesn't do a whole lot.  If it's a small tournament I could see it being a deterrent, but a large one?  How many people are we putting to deck checks?  How often are they looking?  It is their only function?  This course of action also wouldn't have done anything to stop the topic of discussion on this thread.

Like actual security threats, the best defense is awareness of your surroundings.

And not carrying more than 3.4 oz of liquid per item.



#585
divinityofnumber

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How would this keep me from drawing three cards when I'm supposed to draw two?

 

It wouldn't. I was just commenting on improving the environment generally.

 

My idea for the draw issue would be to require players to do what many players already do:

 

1) Set your current hand of cards face down.

2) Draw the cards individually, counting them off and laying them on the table, removing your hand from each one before lifting up to grab the next.

3) Then, pick up the drawn cards and fan them out moderately and then merge them with your existing hand and pick up your cards.

 

It takes about two seconds and eliminates a lot of problems.

 

I always do something like say:

 

"Any actions? Ok, my draw. 4 in hand. 1...2  [drawing the two cards individually and setting them down on the table as they are drawn, then picking up the two and showing as I add them to my hand], six in hand." 

 

That should just be standard.


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#586
pj1

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Agree completely. The LCG crowd often seems to be a bit too casual about all the card management procedures.
I think it should be an integral part of an experienced player's repertoire to handle this clearly and concisely, as described in the post above.
I have been watching some Netrunner tournament videos lately, and it amazes me how many players actually use to put their hands full of cards under the table regularly. In some more "serious" games, this would be like instant warning or so..
Things like this reflect very poorly on the player's technique and style of play..
In a top level tournament such as Nationals, you should always require your opponent to play clearly and concisely. And of course do the same yourself!
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#587
romo

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I think that this thread and issue are important. FFG judges don't pay close attention and nobody at their events ever checks anything. I've played in a ton of events and have never once had anyone check my deck, closely watch a game (even when cutting to the top tables), etc. Yes, someone watches the semifinal and final games, but not really other than that. Further, when an issue does come up, the FFG judges almost appear timid a meek, almost afraid to take care of an issue for fear of making one of the players mad. 

 

They need to randomly check decks throughout the day and be more heavy handed in their monitoring of tournaments and enforcing of rules. I have also played in many MTG tournaments and those, in my opinion and experience, were handled much better. 

 

In general, you are correct, although I have seen FFG attempting to improve at this.  I was in the SWLCG top 16 at worlds last year and my deck was never checked, but at Gen Con this past summer I witnessed Erik do deck checks on the entire top 16.  He also handed out a game loss to a top 16 player who drew too many cards, which I think eliminated him from the tournament.  I was glad to see Erik really taking measures to keep the integrity of the SW event.


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#588
selderane

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Yeah, I think at top 16 or so it's much easier to implement draconian security measures to ensure fair play. That I'd be happy to see. Deck checks for everyone, clear calling out of actions and reactions, obvious card drawing... The whole kitchen sink.
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#589
divinityofnumber

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In general, you are correct, although I have seen FFG attempting to improve at this.  I was in the SWLCG top 16 at worlds last year and my deck was never checked, but at Gen Con this past summer I witnessed Erik do deck checks on the entire top 16.  He also handed out a game loss to a top 16 player who drew too many cards, which I think eliminated him from the tournament.  I was glad to see Erik really taking measures to keep the integrity of the SW event.

 

Wow. Good on Erik. That is cool to hear. These games require a high degree of intellectual ability and acumen. I have always been a strong proponent of treating them with the same respect that games like chess get. I wrote an article for this site a couple of years ago titled Being a Good Player. I think that it is just as relevant now as it was then. 

 

All of the LCG communities are awesome, and, in my opinion, stocked with extremely bright people. We don't need to go too overboard, but we should at least make sure that our games and tournaments are held to a decent, common sense type standard and respected in the same way that other games are. Part of that is making sure that we play like true sportsmen and women. 


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#590
TheJanitor

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I don't remember now the exact circumstances, but I do know that during one of my Top 16 games I automatically discarded a card for some reason while Erik was behind me. Since I didn't actually declare the reason, he did stop the game to ask why. The judges are a little understaffed, but they do their best. Especially during day 2.

And I don't feel like going back a page to quote Drew Dog, but if any opponent in any tournament put his hand under the table for any reason, even it it was to shuffle them, I would call a judge over in an instant. If you want to shuffle, fine. But keep your hand where I can see it.
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#591
DrewDog

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There's no rule that I found that prohibits a player from shuffling his cards under the table or holding his hand under the table.  I think the whole point of shuffling under the table is so your opponent can't keep track of where the ball is in the shell game and not to necessarily cheat.

 

Just a question here.  If I'm reading your post correctly you "accidentally" discarded a card for "some reason."  That would mean that during your draw up to your reserve phase, you would have had an extra card to draw replacing the card that you "accidentally" discarded in the last round.  Sort of the same same thing as Pierson did, however, in a different way.  No?  Maybe you discarded a horrible card in an attempt to draw a better card.  Now, in that instance, I would have called a judge over and ask for a DQ because that's cheating IMO.  Especially during a Top 16 of a tournament.  A veteran player should know better and that seems like a shady move.
 



#592
someguy11

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He automatically, not accidentally, discarded the card. Probably to pay the cost of sith event that requires you to do so.

#593
DrewDog

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In that case, if it was automatic, and not accidentally, than I appolagize.  



#594
DrewDog

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I've said it before, however, I got sucked back into this thread.  I think that all points of view have been stated, debated, and re-debated again.  So I think that by this time everyone has taken a stance one way or another and have stated plenty of good reasons concerning this topic.  At this point I don't believe that anyone will be convinced one way or another to change their view or minds on this topic.

 

Therefore, I'm done posting on this thread.  Good Luck everyone on all upcoming tournaments for Conquest and all other FFG LCGs and I'll see you at the tables.

 

Peace! :ph34r:  B)  :)



#595
mnBroncos

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really want them to have a ruling on this before worlds. I want them to set a precedent before worlds. 


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#596
SyntaxLost

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Organised Play is probably overworked as it is preparing for Worlds.



#597
mnBroncos

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for sure but honestly this is something that you get all the designers and organize play together in conference meeting and talk for 4 hours. It sucks spending the time but is something that NEEDS to be done before worlds. 


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#598
AriceJ

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.... It sucks spending the time but is something that NEEDS to be done before worlds. 

 

Absolutely.

 

Furthermore, punishment must be meted out [...], and it must be made public. Nothing short of this would reconcile the angst that the great majority of players, both competitive and casual gamer alike, share at the moment.


Edited by PBrennan, 23 October 2015 - 06:00 AM.
Potentially inflammatory content removed


#599
selderane

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Absolutely.

 

Furthermore, punishment must be meted out [...], and it must be made public. Nothing short of this would reconcile the angst that the great majority of players, both competitive and casual gamer alike, share at the moment.

This sounds... ghoulish.

I expect a public banning and, maybe, a rules change stating card drawing must be one at a time.


Edited by PBrennan, 23 October 2015 - 12:13 PM.
Potential inflammation removed.


#600
PBrennan

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I think it's at the point now where all is said and done. The recent value-add has been outweighed by the moderation overhead, so I've locked the thread.

 

If and when FFG respond, let's start a new thread.


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