Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Lady Sansa's Rose Card Memory

- - - - -

Best Answer istaril , 26 January 2016 - 12:40 PM

This is the same as the Mirri Maz Duur/Hound question. It doesn't say 'was declared alone as an attacker"  or "was attacking alone" (which would be a bit messy) - it says "Is attacking alone".

 

At the point for the reaction, you won the challenge, you are (present tense) attacking alone - you can use Lady Sansa's Rose.

Go to the full post »


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1
PatrickHaynes

PatrickHaynes

    Advanced Member

  • Small Council
  • 331 posts

So Lady Sansa's Rose says After you win a challenge in which you control a Knight character that is attacking or defending alone, that character gains 1 power. (3 power instead if you control a Lady character.) (Max 1 per challenge.)

 

If I attack with, say, the Knight of Flowers and the Hound, and I win the challenge so the Hound is returned to my hand via his own forced reaction, am I allowed to trigger Lady Sansa's Rose as the Knight of flowers is currently my only attacking character, or does the card/game remember that Knight of Flowers was not declared as a lone attack and thus the triggering condition for the event is not met? 
 

I guess this basically boils down to; when does the game verify that a character "is attacking or defending alone". My instinct would be that it is checked when Lady Sansa's Rose is about to be played but I'd like confirmation. 



#2
JoePerson

JoePerson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts
I was just about to post to ask the same thing. My instinct is the same as yours and that the knight is attacking/defending alone since there are no other participating characters on your side. I would like to hear from someone more knowledgeable though.

#3
drakk

drakk

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 320 posts

I agree with your conclusion, forced reactions happen before reactions and at the time you trigger lady sansa's rose he is attacking alone.

 

The alternative would be that in the D step of DUCK that in addition to determining who wins and whether or not it's unopposed  it would also need to determine if you are attacking alone



#4
drakk

drakk

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 320 posts

4.2.2 Compare STR to determine challenge winner Compare the combined STR of all attacking characters (plus any active modifiers) to the combined STR of all defending characters (plus any active modifiers) to determine the challenge winner. The player whose side has the higher total STR wins the challenge (or in the case of a tie, the challenge is won by the attacking player). If this player does not have a total STR of 1 or higher, and/or if there are no participating characters on this player’s side when this step (i.e., the STR comparison) occurs, neither player wins (or loses) the challenge. If the attacking player is the winner, and the total STR on the defending side of the challenge was 0, the challenge is considered “unopposed.” TIMING NOTE: Reactions to winning and/or losing the challenge may be initiated after the completion of this step

 

This is the step it'd need to determine that and there is nothing suggesting it does it here, so would only check the play restriction when you play the event



#5
dukman

dukman

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 41 posts

A similar situation was discussed regarding Cersei (who has the text: "While Cersei Lannister is attacking during 

an [Intrigue] challenge, raise the claim value on your revealed plot card by 1. ").

 

The question was If she attacks, wins, gets killed with Like Warm Rain ("Reaction: After you lose an [Intrigue] challenge as the defending player, kneel a Direwolf character to choose and kill an attacking character. (Max 1 per challenge.)"), does the increased claim still apply? And the answer was no, because at the time of satisfying the claim, she has already left play and her ability does not apply any more.

 

Following this, I believe your assumption is correct and because the Hound has left play before the event occurs, the Knight of Flowers is now considered to be attacking alone (this check is made when the event is played, doesn't matter who was declared as attacker in the previous steps).

 

Also, if you check the framework event details, cards can "check" if characters are still participating / alive all the way until:

 

4.2.6 Challenge ends

This step formalizes the end of the challenge. All characters that were participating in the challenge are no longer participating. Proceed to the action window between framework steps 4.1 and 4.2. 

 

This step happens after all DUCK steps (and reactions) are resolved, so all the way until that point the characters are considered participating, not just until 4.2.2 when the challenge winner is determined.


  • drakk likes this

#6
istaril

istaril

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1732 posts
✓  Best Answer

This is the same as the Mirri Maz Duur/Hound question. It doesn't say 'was declared alone as an attacker"  or "was attacking alone" (which would be a bit messy) - it says "Is attacking alone".

 

At the point for the reaction, you won the challenge, you are (present tense) attacking alone - you can use Lady Sansa's Rose.



#7
Bomb

Bomb

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2588 posts

Let's say that The Hound is your only attacking character and is returned to your hand.  Are you now considered to have won the challenge without any participating characters?


  • FedericoFasullo likes this

#8
istaril

istaril

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1732 posts

Let's say that The Hound is your only attacking character and is returned to your hand.  Are you now considered to have won the challenge without any participating characters?

 

No effect in the game currently checks what you won (past tense) WITH. They all say e.g. "In which x is attacking alone" or "In which attached character is participating" or "In which X is participating as an attacker". 

 

So if there were an effect that said "After you win a challenge as the attacker in which you control no participating characters, win the game" - sure, you could trigger that because The Hound/Ghaston/Like Warm Rain dealt with your only attacker, why not?

 

Conversly, if you had some strange way to cheat a character into the challenge as an attacker after challenge determination of winner, it could also affect reactions to winning, Unopposed/Claim/Keywords. It just wouldn't affect how much you won by.


  • uday likes this

#9
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1462 posts
Perhaps a better was to look at it is that once created, a triggering condition does not change. This is why, for example, a challenge does not become "unopposed" if you kill all the defenders after the result of the challenge is determined.

This does create a bit of a nuance in that it can be hard to tell the difference between a required aspect of a triggering condition ("unopposed challenge," "won a challenge with a participating Knight character," "played/deployed the last card in your hand") as opposed to a play restriction on the ability being used ("is the only participating character"), but istaril's "present vs. past tense" tip is a good place to start.

#10
Bomb

Bomb

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2588 posts

I get it.  If the effect was past tense, then it would look at the state of the challenge upon winning the challenge.  Since it is looking at present tense, you are only looking at the state of the challenge at the moment in time you are triggering the effect.