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Nymeria Sand vs Edric Dayne/No Icon

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Best Answer istaril , 01 February 2016 - 07:30 PM

In a meeting, will give the full answer with RR page numbers later, The short

1) Yes. It's just applying a modifier -1 to that icon type (You can also choose a 0 STR character for Plaza of punishment or dracarys

 

2) Yes, 0 base, -1 nymeria + 1 edric +1 edric = 1. 

 

This shouldn't come as a major surprise - we've been working with this for a while with the ability "Confinement" (which, as has been asked before, can be used on, say, Edric) - and just applies a -1 modifier to each icon type. 

 

Here comes the long form answer. Nymeria's text requires that you choose a character, and then it applies the following modifier; -1 icon of your choice to that character / +1 of that icon to Sand snakes. 

 

  • The first thing to note is that the only targeting restriction (choose indicates a target) is a character - the icon is chosen, but not targeted.
  • The second is that all icon modifications work like this; I've often had people ask whether Nymeria can remove Arya's icon or whether Arya's ability "sets" Arya to already have an icon. I use the same analogy there I'll use here - pretend these are STR modifiers. If Arya said "while she has a duplicate, she gains +1 STR" you wouldn't argue that after applying Dracarys, she stays at 3 STR! Nymeria basically works like a -1 STR/+1 STR modifier.
  • The third thing people tend to ask is whether the icon can be gained if it wasn't actually "lost" from the first character - here the answer is easy. The icon removal and icon gain are tied by an AND, not a THEN - they're not conditional at all. Even if they were, the latter portion would be conditional on "the succesful application of a -1 modifier", not dependent on going from 1 (or more) instances of a mil icon to 0 (or fewer). 
  • Lastly, some players object because they think the icon loss (or gain) might be subject to the rules prohibiting initiating an action that wouldn't change the game state (xxAn ability cannot initiate (and therefore its costs cannot be paid) if the resolution of its effect will not change the game state.) if used on a character without the icon. Again, the paralell here is STR modification - an effect that reads "until the end of the phase, that character gains -2 STR" *could* be used on a 0 STR character (or a 1 STR character participating in a challenge against Danaerys) - because it will succesfully apply a modifier that forces us to recalculate the total (even if the total doesn't change).

 

A lot of players have trouble with this, but it's all derived from the same entry in the RR: "Modifiers" p13 (which I've pasted below). Traits, cost, keywords, icons, initiative, reserve, gold and STR are all treated the same. 

 

So in the end, when Nymeria strips a mil icon from your unsworn apprentice (0-1=-1=0), then you initiate Unsword Apprentice's ability to give it a mil icon (0-1+1=0), then Syrio's ability grants him another (0-1+1+1=1), you're just adding modifiers. The difference between this and STR is that the game (to date) only cares whether you have 1 or 0 icons/traits/keywords of a relevant type, while STR (and gold, initiative, reserve), every increment above 0 counts.

 

 

Modifiers
Some abilities may ask players to modify values.
The game state constantly checks and (if necessary)
updates the count of any variable quantity that is being
modified.
Any time a new modifier is applied (or removed),
the entire quantity is recalculated from the start,
considering the unmodified base value and all active
modifiers.
xxThe calculation of a value should treat all modifiers
as being applied simultaneously. However, while
performing the calculation, all additive and
subtractive modifiers should be calculated before
doubling and/or halving modifiers are calculated.
xxFractional values are rounded up after all modifiers
have been applied.
xxWhen a value is “set” to a specific number, the set
modifier overrides all non-set modifiers (including
any new non-set modifiers that are added during the
duration of the set value). If multiple set modifiers
are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier
takes precedence.
xxA quantity cannot be reduced so that it functions
with a value below zero: a card cannot have
“negative” icons, STR, traits, cost, or keywords.
Negative modifiers in excess of a value’s current
quantity can be applied, but, after all active
modifiers have been applied, any resultant value
below zero is treated as zero.
Related: Base Value
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9 replies to this topic

#1
JonasSolberg

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Nymeria Sand

 

Challenges Action: Choose an opponent's character.  Until the end of the phase, that character loses a challenge icon of your choice, and each Sand Snake character you control gains that challenge icon. (Limit once per Phase)

 

Edric Dayne

 

Action: Pay 1 gold to give Edric Dayne a challenge icon of your choice until the end of the phase.

 

 

1.) Can Nymeria Sand choose a character with no icons (or doesn't have the icon you choose) to have all sand snakes gain that icon?

 

2.) If so, and then afterwards would Edric Dayne be required to take his action 2 times to get the icon chosen?



#2
istaril

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✓  Best Answer

In a meeting, will give the full answer with RR page numbers later, The short

1) Yes. It's just applying a modifier -1 to that icon type (You can also choose a 0 STR character for Plaza of punishment or dracarys

 

2) Yes, 0 base, -1 nymeria + 1 edric +1 edric = 1. 

 

This shouldn't come as a major surprise - we've been working with this for a while with the ability "Confinement" (which, as has been asked before, can be used on, say, Edric) - and just applies a -1 modifier to each icon type. 

 

Here comes the long form answer. Nymeria's text requires that you choose a character, and then it applies the following modifier; -1 icon of your choice to that character / +1 of that icon to Sand snakes. 

 

  • The first thing to note is that the only targeting restriction (choose indicates a target) is a character - the icon is chosen, but not targeted.
  • The second is that all icon modifications work like this; I've often had people ask whether Nymeria can remove Arya's icon or whether Arya's ability "sets" Arya to already have an icon. I use the same analogy there I'll use here - pretend these are STR modifiers. If Arya said "while she has a duplicate, she gains +1 STR" you wouldn't argue that after applying Dracarys, she stays at 3 STR! Nymeria basically works like a -1 STR/+1 STR modifier.
  • The third thing people tend to ask is whether the icon can be gained if it wasn't actually "lost" from the first character - here the answer is easy. The icon removal and icon gain are tied by an AND, not a THEN - they're not conditional at all. Even if they were, the latter portion would be conditional on "the succesful application of a -1 modifier", not dependent on going from 1 (or more) instances of a mil icon to 0 (or fewer). 
  • Lastly, some players object because they think the icon loss (or gain) might be subject to the rules prohibiting initiating an action that wouldn't change the game state (xxAn ability cannot initiate (and therefore its costs cannot be paid) if the resolution of its effect will not change the game state.) if used on a character without the icon. Again, the paralell here is STR modification - an effect that reads "until the end of the phase, that character gains -2 STR" *could* be used on a 0 STR character (or a 1 STR character participating in a challenge against Danaerys) - because it will succesfully apply a modifier that forces us to recalculate the total (even if the total doesn't change).

 

A lot of players have trouble with this, but it's all derived from the same entry in the RR: "Modifiers" p13 (which I've pasted below). Traits, cost, keywords, icons, initiative, reserve, gold and STR are all treated the same. 

 

So in the end, when Nymeria strips a mil icon from your unsworn apprentice (0-1=-1=0), then you initiate Unsword Apprentice's ability to give it a mil icon (0-1+1=0), then Syrio's ability grants him another (0-1+1+1=1), you're just adding modifiers. The difference between this and STR is that the game (to date) only cares whether you have 1 or 0 icons/traits/keywords of a relevant type, while STR (and gold, initiative, reserve), every increment above 0 counts.

 

 

Modifiers
Some abilities may ask players to modify values.
The game state constantly checks and (if necessary)
updates the count of any variable quantity that is being
modified.
Any time a new modifier is applied (or removed),
the entire quantity is recalculated from the start,
considering the unmodified base value and all active
modifiers.
xxThe calculation of a value should treat all modifiers
as being applied simultaneously. However, while
performing the calculation, all additive and
subtractive modifiers should be calculated before
doubling and/or halving modifiers are calculated.
xxFractional values are rounded up after all modifiers
have been applied.
xxWhen a value is “set” to a specific number, the set
modifier overrides all non-set modifiers (including
any new non-set modifiers that are added during the
duration of the set value). If multiple set modifiers
are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier
takes precedence.
xxA quantity cannot be reduced so that it functions
with a value below zero: a card cannot have
“negative” icons, STR, traits, cost, or keywords.
Negative modifiers in excess of a value’s current
quantity can be applied, but, after all active
modifiers have been applied, any resultant value
below zero is treated as zero.
Related: Base Value

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#3
mplain

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Do we have any basis to assume that the "Icon" attribute has a numerical value and not simply True/False?

 

Anywhere in the rules? Or do we assume so simply because the opposite is not clearly stated? I hope that they attend to this issue in the official FAQ.



#4
ktom

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Do we have any basis to assume that the "Icon" attribute has a numerical value and not simply True/False?

 

Anywhere in the rules? Or do we assume so simply because the opposite is not clearly stated? I hope that they attend to this issue in the official FAQ.

 

In case it got lost somewhere in istaril's detailed reply to the original question, the answer to this question is that yes, the RRG's entry on "Modifiers" (p. 13) specifically talks about the fact that negative modifiers can be applied, and that a resultant negative value is treated as 0. Essentially, this entry tells you that icons are calculated numerically, but the result is treated as true/false.

 

The important thing, though, is that the rules do provide a basis for applying "loses an icon" modifiers to characters that do not have a printed (or effective) icon of that type.



#5
KruppSteel

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Ok I have read the detailed answer, but would like to clarify something I am not sure of.

 

Say Nymeria targets my Queen of Thorns, the controller of Nymeria declares Military Icon. So even though QoT does not possess a military icon, Nymeria and the other Sand Snakes still receive a military icon, correct? It does not matter whether or not the character started with that icon (yes I understand the + and - aspect if say Syrio gave her one).

 

So basically she can 'steal' whatever icon she likes, regardless if that icon is printed on the card or not?

 

Thanks for your help.



#6
istaril

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Ok I have read the detailed answer, but would like to clarify something I am not sure of.

 

Say Nymeria targets my Queen of Thorns, the controller of Nymeria declares Military Icon. So even though QoT does not possess a military icon, Nymeria and the other Sand Snakes still receive a military icon, correct? It does not matter whether or not the character started with that icon (yes I understand the + and - aspect if say Syrio gave her one).

 

So basically she can 'steal' whatever icon she likes, regardless if that icon is printed on the card or not?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Yes. This was the first question asked - and answered in the affirmative. To quote myself (is there any more pretentious sentence in the english language?) from above, the reasoning for it comes from the following two points.

 

  • The third thing people tend to ask is whether the icon can be gained if it wasn't actually "lost" from the first character - here the answer is easy. The icon removal and icon gain are tied by an AND, not a THEN - they're not conditional at all. Even if they were, the latter portion would be conditional on "the succesful application of a -1 modifier", not dependent on going from 1 (or more) instances of a mil icon to 0 (or fewer). 
  • Lastly, some players object because they think the icon loss (or gain) might be subject to the rules prohibiting initiating an action that wouldn't change the game state (xxAn ability cannot initiate (and therefore its costs cannot be paid) if the resolution of its effect will not change the game state.) if used on a character without the icon. Again, the paralell here is STR modification - an effect that reads "until the end of the phase, that character gains -2 STR" *could* be used on a 0 STR character (or a 1 STR character participating in a challenge against Danaerys) - because it will succesfully apply a modifier that forces us to recalculate the total (even if the total doesn't change).

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#7
ktom

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It's better not to think of her effect as "stealing" an icon so much as "buying on credit."


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#8
uday

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Think of this 2 different abilities:

 

I
1. Choose character.
2. That character (which one? the one we chosen in 1.) looses icon of your choice.
That makes sense, right? We can do it, because we apply modifier, as Istaril explained. Everything's legit.

 

II

1. Choose icon.
2. Sand Snakes gain that icon (which one? the one we chosen in 1.).

That again makes sense. We can do it because we apply modifier. Everything's legit.

 

Now we see that as part of I2. we are choosing Icon, so we can incorporate II1. into I2. Third part of ability does not care if character from step 1. had icons or not, it only cares about what choice you did in step 2. regarding type of icon.

 

1. Choose character.
2. That character (which one? the one we chosen in 1.) looses icon of your choise.

3. Sand Snakes gain that icon (which one? the one we chosen in 2.).


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#9
actionjohnny

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Hi guys,

 

New to this forum and the game somewhat in general, but I had to make an account for this place just to post in this thread.

 

First of all, I play Martell primarily, almost singularly. I have 4 different Martell decks now, so I use Nym a lot. Until today I had never encountered a player espousing this 'reasoning' that Nymeria can invoke icons out of thin air. When I brought him up on it, he linked me to this thread.

 

Can I genuinely ask, that for 1 minute, do people actually think that the designers of the game intended to have Nymeria just be able pick and choose whatever icon she likes, regardless of what's on offer on the table? Because that to me just absolutely smacks of rule whoring. I've read the above post, and regardless of how you read the card I simply cannot believe that the designers of the game intended the above to be the case.

 

Now, if you got me one of the rule writers from FFG in here to tell me otherwise then fair play, but otherwise I will simply not abide by the above, whether it's my Nymeria or anyone else's who benefits.



#10
ktom

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Can I genuinely ask, that for 1 minute, do people actually think that the designers of the game intended to have Nymeria just be able pick and choose whatever icon she likes, regardless of what's on offer on the table? Because that to me just absolutely smacks of rule whoring. I've read the above post, and regardless of how you read the card I simply cannot believe that the designers of the game intended the above to be the case.

 

Well, as istaril is one of the credited editors in the rulebook, I'd say that his answer is pretty well considered with what the designers "intended," and involves input from the company. Since the designers and developers do not generally comment on the public boards, his answer is about as official as you're going to get without writing to FFG directly.

 

Now, if you got me one of the rule writers from FFG in here to tell me otherwise then fair play, but otherwise I will simply not abide by the above, whether it's my Nymeria or anyone else's who benefits.

 

FFG has responded to questions to confirm that applying "loses" modifiers to cards that already have nothing for the effective stat in question is legal. As mentioned above, the "rule writers from FFG" do not post on the boards, but you can write to them directly using this link to confirm or refute the position posted here - which istaril has confirmed with the designers and developers at FFG previously.