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Moribund and cancel effects (Arya THoBaW and Dayne Spearman)
Posted 25 February 2016 - 12:04 AM
Just staring this topic as I found no specific ruling on this anywhere. I have 2 scenarios to look at, which I believe overlap the same rule question.
Situation 1: My opponent is playing Arya Stark (THoBaW). He triggers her after one of his character is killed for military claim. I play Lord of Light Protect Us and kneel an Asshai character to pay for this cancel.
Question 1: It is my understanding that my opponent triggering Arya's response makes her moribund-discard. As such, she is considered in play until the end of the response phase, thus opening the possibilty for cancelling her effect, even though her cost (moribund-discard) has already been paid and is not cancellable. Am I getting some features of this wrong?
Situation 2: My opponent controls Dayne Spearman. My opponent loses a challenge, and after the claim choses to activate Dayne Spearman's response. I play Lord of Light Protect Us in order to cancel his response.
Question 2: Following the same logic as above, my understanding is that when my opponent activates Dayne Spearman's response, the character's final destination is set to moribund-shadows. As such, the characters is considered in play for all purposes of triggered effects and character abilities, and remains in play until the end of the response phase, thus opening a window for a cancel and making situation 2's cancel a legal one. Am I also missing something here?
I am looking forward to your replies and insight on these so I can have peace of mind
- Zenyapab, RafaelLew, Stevenneoni and 1 other like this
Posted 25 February 2016 - 07:49 PM
I'm not sure what you're really asking here as the cancels have nothing to do with the card being moribund when removed from play as part of the cost?
Are you concerned that, because the card leaves play as part of paying its cost, it is not considered a "triggered ability"? If so, don't be concerned. The FAQ states, "A 'triggered ability' is a triggered effect printed on a card already in play." The initiation process is started when the card is in play, so it cannot change from an "ability" to an "effect" halfway through the initiation process.
It is possible - though incredibly rare - for the part before the word "then" to count as an effect, and the part after the word "then" to count as an ability (because the part before the word "then" puts the card into play), but this sort of transition only happens with "then" effects because there is technically a separate initiation for the part after the word "then." A single initiation cannot change character from "ability" to "effect," or vice versa, based on paying a cost.
Posted 02 March 2016 - 05:09 PM
Thank you for your reply on this. Seems that I phrased my question poorly. I'll try again
Basically in situation 1 outlined above, I played Lord of Light, Protect Us to cancel the kill effect of his Arya Stark, by kneeling an Asshai character. My opponent argued that Arya was already in the discard pile thus could not be cancelled, and I argued the opposite point of view. In my view Arya was moribund discard, and an be cancelled as part of the normal action framework.
I hope I did a better job explaining it this time. The debate was basically around whether Arya hits the discard pile right away as part of her cost (thus out of play and cannot be cancelled), which makes little sense to me.
Posted 02 March 2016 - 08:13 PM
Sounds like your opponent was grasping at straws.
You are correct that when a character leaves play as part of paying cost, it goes into moribund and stays on the table until the end of the action window.
However, Arya's in-play/out-of-play state has nothing to do with whether or not her effect can be canceled. Things that are not in-play (events, particularly, though a couple of plots, too) are canceled all the time. Once your opponent chooses to trigger Arya's response, the resolution of that effect goes through the steps of:
before taking you back to the "response" for the action window.
Since all of those steps happen as part of using Arya's response, your opponent saying she cannot be canceled in #2 because she left play in #1 is as nonsensical as if you had tried to say that because she left play in #1, the target character cannot be killed in #3.
Another way to explain this is that the cancel is not interacting with Arya directly. It is canceling the effect, which is considered separate from the card once it is triggered. So, just like a character's "immune to events" has nothing to do with whether you can cancel the ability with an event once it is triggered, Arya's in-play/out-of-play state has nothing to do with whether or not her ability can be canceled once it is triggered.
Anyway, long story short - you are correct that discarding Arya for cost sends her into moribund (instead of the discard pile) until the end of the action window. But that's not the reason you can still cancel her ability. That's why I was trying to find some actual reason your opponent might have to say "Lord of Light..." didn't apply - because simply saying you cannot cancel the effect of a card that has left play to pay its cost is just fundamentally not how the game works.
Posted 08 March 2016 - 10:31 AM
Thank you for your detailed explanation on this, this is what I assumed as well.
Following that same logic, it is my understanding that it is correct to state that the Dayne Spearman icon-removing effect is cancellable.
However his returning to shadows being the cost, and his moribund destination having already been picked, he will go back to Shadows regardless (unless a specifically phrased card changes its destination).
Posted 08 March 2016 - 07:03 PM
Correct. Cards that leave play as part of the cost still leave play, even if the effect is canceled.