Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Outflankem and ranged interactions


Best Answer steinerp , 08 March 2016 - 03:35 PM

Confirmed that option A is the proper ruling.  All combat turns during the ranged skirmish but be ranged combat turns (and therefore only Ranged units are allowed to be declared) 

Go to the full post »


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1
Grendel

Grendel

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 25 posts
Outflankem Reaction: After your combat turn ends, take another one.
My question in essence is it possible for a non ranged unit to take a combat turn with outflankem after a ranged unit.
I can see under the rules that if My opponent or I still have a ranged unit, no I could not elect a non ranged unit. It seems though after my last or only ranged unit strikes the game checks to see if the ranged portion ends and then I could elect say a snakebite thug.

#2
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

The intent is that you just carry on as if it was your turn to next do a combat turn, meaning you could follow your last ranged unit with a non-ranged unit. But I'm not sure the intent marries with the rules.

 

Per RR pg 24:

"For game purposes, a “ranged combat turn” is a subset of a “combat turn.” Any ability that references a “combat turn” may interact with ranged and non-ranged combat turns."

 

It's unclear if "take another one" (not a phrase I like, but anyway ...) means:

 

a.) you take a combat turn that's of exactly the same nature as the combat turn just taken, ie if you've just taken a ranged combat turn, then you must take another ranged combat turn. This would mean that it's useless if your last ranged unit just attacked, as you wouldn't have another ranged unit. So you wouldn't think this was the intent. Or, ...

 

b.) the card effect allows you to take any type of combat turn. The argument here is that the combat turn generated by the card is outside those generated by the rules framework, and is being generated after the ranged combat turn completes so it's not bound to being ranged. The rules framework might generate a ranged combat turn, but there's no rule that stipulates that all card-generated combat turns generated during the ranged skirmish must be ranged attacks. If this holds, then you could attack with a non-ranged unit even if you had ranged units ready to go. Or, ...

 

c.) the card effect allows you to take a combat turn that's currently allowable by the rules - ie it must be ranged if you have a ranged unit left, or a normal combat turn otherwise.

 

The correct answer is almost certainly c), but it requires a ruling from FFG to confirm as it feels like there's inadequate rules support to independently rule.

 

Note also that there is no action window in between the combat turn just taken and the card-generated combat turn, as the latter happens during the reaction window after the first. Also note that once the card-generated combat turn is resolved and all reactions to it are complete, you're still within the reaction window of the first combat turn and can generate more reactions to that combat turn, including more Outflank'ems if you like. Only after they're all complete does the action window open.



#3
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts

There is plenty of support in the rules for PBrennan's "choice c." Specifically, there are the Golden Rules on p. 2 of the RRG:

 

"The Golden Rules

If the text of this Rules Reference Guide contradicts the text of the Learn to Play book, the text of this guide takes precedence.

If the ability text of a card contradicts the text of either the Rules Reference Guide or the Learn to Play book, the text of the card takes precedence."

 

 

What that comes down to is that unless the ability text of a card contradicts the text of the RRG, the RRG stands and should be applied.

 

Outflank'em specifically contradicts when you can take a combat turn. It does NOT contradict how that combat turn progresses or is resolved. If the intent was to allow any unit to attack when Outflank'em is played, they should have actually said, "After your combat turn ends, make an attack with another ready unit at this planet."

 

So, Outflank'em doesn't allow a non-Ranged unit to attack during the Ranged Skirmish. If it does, then someone is going to need to explain why the rule that only Ranged units are eligible to attack during the Ranged Skirmish is suspended, but rules like, "Only ready units you control are eligible to attack during your combat turn" and "Only units you control at that planet are eligible to attack during your combat turn" are not. 

 

Based on the Golden Rules, PBrennan's "C" really is the only truly viable application of the rules. If FFG intended something different, they really do need to rule on it, or better yet, errata the text on the card.



#4
steinerp

steinerp

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 833 posts
ktom- I follow the logic on it needs to be a ranged unit to attack in the ranged skrimish phase, but what I don't get is what would allow a non-ranged unit to attack if all the ranged units are exhausted. We are still in the ranged phase as the game hasn't had time to check to see if we can leave it yet. If C is correct and a non-ranged unit can attack if you have no ranged units left, are we still in the ranged phase or did we some how skip out of it (what if opponent still has ranged units)? Your explanation sounds like answer A (which I agree with) but you said C (which have reserves about).

I'm also not opposed to the Outflank 'em can't be used in the Ranged combat phase because you do not have "Another" combat turn to take (your previous turn was a Ranged Combat turn) answer. Although there is the section in the about interchangeable thatI don't understand

#5
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts

ktom-  I follow the logic on it needs to be a ranged unit to attack in the ranged skrimish phase, but what I don't get is what would allow a non-ranged unit to attack if all the ranged units are exhausted. 

 

Sorry. I didn't read choice "C" closely enough. I missed the addendum.

Based on the Golden Rules, you cannot attack with a non-Ranged unit during the Ranged Skirmish, period. This is bcause there is nothing in the text of Outflank'em that contradicts the rule stating that only Ranged units can take combat turns during the Ranged Skirmish.

 

I'm also not opposed to the Outflank 'em can't be used in the Ranged combat phase because you do not have "Another" combat turn to take (your previous turn was a Ranged Combat turn) answer.

 

 

Eh. I don't think that will fly because of the following from the RRG (p. 25):

"For game purposes, a 'ranged combat turn' is a subset of a 'combat turn.' Any ability that references a 'combat turn' may interact with ranged and non-ranged combat turns."



#6
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

Playing devil's advocate ... there is no rule that outright says that a combat turn taken during the ranged skirmish MUST be a ranged combat turn. All it says is that players alternate ranged combat turns, and then specifies how to make a ranged attack during a ranged combat turn.

 

But this card effect grants the player the ability to do a COMBAT TURN. The rules don't outlaw the ability to do a non-ranged combat turn during the ranged skirmish, and it certainly doesn't use "cannot" in this regard - you just can't normally do it because the rules framework only provides for ranged combat turns during the ranged skirmish. But it doesn't say you can't do it, and the card ability is providing you the means to do it! That's why I'd argue that no rule has been broken by performing a non-ranged combat turn during the ranged skirmish using Outflank'em, and that the golden rule doesn't even come into it in this instance.

 

I'm sure they won't rule this way, but that's why a ruling is needed.

 

The most frequent use of the golden rule in my experience is in Star Wars, where the rules say that a unit can have a maximum of 1 shield. If a card effect says place 2 units on a shield, then that directly contradicts the written rule, and the golden rule then allows it. But there's no written rule specifically outlawing Outflank'em's ability, to perform a non-ranged combat turn. It may be implied, but it's not stated. Anyway, I look forward to seeing if and how the design team sees it otherwise ;-)



#7
Grendel

Grendel

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 25 posts
So best way to play with this card in the interim? A lot of decisions have seemed to be RAW and taking a non ranged combat turn does not contradict anything.

#8
PBrennan

PBrennan

    Conquest Rules Arbitrator

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 874 posts

Pending a ruling, I'd suggest following the flowchart in the RR - if you're still officially within the ranged skirmish per that flowchart, then only allow Outflank'em to grant a ranged combat turn. I *think* that's the intent.



#9
WarfStyxfury

WarfStyxfury

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 268 posts

Yes there is no action window.



#10
steinerp

steinerp

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 833 posts

I am contacting FFG to try and get official confirmation prior to the cards actual release.  

ktom- like I said I'm not sure what that phrase really means.  It clearly means that if a card references a combat turn it can also be assumed to reference a ranged combat turn.  But does it go the other way where a card that gives a combat turn will give the proper type of combat turn.  So the reaction condition in my mind is clearly enabled but you might be able to make a fairly weak argument that the "another" doesn't hold.  I'm not making the argument for that, but I wouldn't be entirely shocked should that be the FFG ruling.  (I think a stronger argument is that the referenced section actually makes option B the answer).  Either way hopefully we will find out soon



#11
steinerp

steinerp

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 833 posts
✓  Best Answer

Confirmed that option A is the proper ruling.  All combat turns during the ranged skirmish but be ranged combat turns (and therefore only Ranged units are allowed to be declared) 


  • Gosgosh likes this

#12
LordVampire

LordVampire

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 861 posts
Just to be clear, as this isn't answered I think: What if both players have attacked with all of their ranged units and the player that went last plays Outflank'em to attack with a non-ranged unit, would that work?

#13
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts
No.
If it's played during the Ranged Skirmish, only Ranged units are eligible to take a combat turn.

#14
108Hoff

108Hoff

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

I'm confused what the benefit of the card is, outside of forcing a second ranged skirmish, which only seems to matter if you had ranged units. Because wouldn't making another combat turn happen work for both sides? Is this a better version of Smash N' Bash where only the player that played this card gets to stand things up and attack again?



#15
Minute

Minute

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
A combat turn is a single attack. This card let's you attack with one guy and then immediately attack with another guy. You get two attacks before your opponent can attack back.
  • 108Hoff likes this

#16
108Hoff

108Hoff

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Cool. Thanks Minute