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Jory Saving Catelyn from Terminal Burn

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Best Answer istaril , 28 April 2016 - 04:34 PM

We may get more directly official confirmation, but I have had a chance to talk to Nate about it. The effect saving the card can take into account other constants/lasting effects (in fact, it has to as we're taking into account all modifiers to STR, and the "killed if 0" effect). 

 

This means that Jory *can* save Catelyn (Wolves) (in winter), provided that STR boost will remedy the ongoing condition. Likewise, Blood Magic Ritual can save Sansa (Wolves) from a terminal effect if blanking her text box will boost her STR. 

 

Note that you still can't 'anticipate' other triggered abilities or the application of new modifiers - only how all the current constants/lasting effects interact.

 

This is interesting to me, because it mostly implies that the save 'attempt' has to remedy the condition, rather than the save effect - it's counter to how I would have assumed it worked. That said, it's not inconsistent with the fact that we really are taking into account a lot of lasting/constants already in making the determination of whether the effect can be initiated, so I won't object too loudly :P.

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#21
Zigur

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Disclaimer: The effect below does not exist.  It's hypothetical.

 

Another way you might be able to "remove the terminal state" that is not directly related to the save effect:

 

Save a character.  Then, discard one attachment from play.  (or all attachments from saved character)

The above could remove Crown of Gold which would be removing the kill effect at 0.

 

Otherwise, we will be significantly limited to what will save characters from terminal effects if "then, give +X STR" is going to be the only way.  I'd hope that we can have some interesting interactions that would count as remedying the terminal state.
 

 

This is an interesting one!  What if there are two attachments?  A Crown of Gold killing your dude and a Seal of the Hand sitting on Drogo?  The save won't necessarily save your dying character - you might prefer to discard the Seal and let your dude die.  So the save effect won't necessarily save - although it certainly could.  I don't know how the rules would interface with that situation.  Would it be different if there the Crown of Gold was the only valid attachment?



#22
Zigur

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The difference here is that Risen saves and increases STR all by itself - one card does both things, save + remedy. On the other hand, Jory and Ritual do not raise STR by themselves, at least not directly. They each have an additional effect that, due to its interaction with a constant ability on another card (Catelyn or Sansa), does cause STR increase, but *indirectly*.

 

The relevant entry in the rulebook states:

 

See, in one place it says that a "save attempt" must remedy the ongoing condition - and with that, Jory+Catelyn or Ritual+Sansa would comply.

However, in another place it says that the "save effect" must remedy the condition - presumably by itself, directly, not taking into account any interactions with other card abilities.

 

This is why the matter is ambiguous, and requires the word of Nate.

 

In his E-mails to me concerning Risen, Nate made it pretty clear it was the save effect, not the save attempt.  So unless and until we get confirmation from the man himself, I think that's how I'm going to play it.



#23
istaril

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✓  Best Answer

We may get more directly official confirmation, but I have had a chance to talk to Nate about it. The effect saving the card can take into account other constants/lasting effects (in fact, it has to as we're taking into account all modifiers to STR, and the "killed if 0" effect). 

 

This means that Jory *can* save Catelyn (Wolves) (in winter), provided that STR boost will remedy the ongoing condition. Likewise, Blood Magic Ritual can save Sansa (Wolves) from a terminal effect if blanking her text box will boost her STR. 

 

Note that you still can't 'anticipate' other triggered abilities or the application of new modifiers - only how all the current constants/lasting effects interact.

 

This is interesting to me, because it mostly implies that the save 'attempt' has to remedy the condition, rather than the save effect - it's counter to how I would have assumed it worked. That said, it's not inconsistent with the fact that we really are taking into account a lot of lasting/constants already in making the determination of whether the effect can be initiated, so I won't object too loudly :P.


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#24
mplain

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The word of Nate:

 

3) Yes, Blood Magic Ritual can be used to save Sansa from a Terminal Burn if the calculation of her STR after the save attempt resolves would leave her above 0 STR. And yes, Jory can do the same with Catelyn if the calculation of her STR would leave her above 0 STR. In other words, you do factor constant (or lasting) abilities that will be affecting the game state when calculating what the character’s STR will be to determine if the save attempt can be made.

 

Nate French

Senior LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games


#25
Kamerad

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Just the final clarification - would Catelyn be saved from burn by Jory outside of Winter plots (by her reaction on Jory's sacrifice)?



#26
mplain

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No, you don't take into account any triggered abilities, only constant ones.

#27
steinerp

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Just for confirmation:

Hi Paul,

 
The power gain does come as part of Jory’s effect, and after the application of that effect when you would re-calculate Catelyn's STR, the Terminal condition has been remedied.
 
This interaction is permitted.
 
Nate
 

On Apr 20, 2016, at 10:02 AM, Paul Steiner <paul.hans.steiner@gmail.com> wrote:

Nate- It appears that AGOT 2.0:Card Game has disappeared from the question submission page so I am sending the to you directly.

Rules Question:
Question that popped up on the rules forum today and after talking to Alex we decided to send it to you. The new Catelyn Stark is reduced to exactly 0 Str. by a kill burn effect. Can Joy Cassel be used to save her if you played a winter plot? Jory Cassel text: Interrupt: When a unique [Stark] character you control would be killed, sacrifice Jory Cassel to save it. Then, if there is a Winter plot card revealed, that character gains 1 power. Catelyn text: Catelyn Stark gets +1 STR for each power she has. RRG text on saving:"If a constant ability or lasting effect imposes a condition upon a card that would continually drive it from play (for example, a lasting effect that applies to a character over a period of time, and kills that character if its STR is 0), any attempt to save the card must also remedy the ongoing condition. " Basically the question is: Does Jory's adding of power constitute the ability removing the terminal condition as the game recalculates her Strength or Since Catelyn's ability is what is giving her the Str, the added power does not remove the ongoing condition itself and thus it is not eligible to play. Thanks


#28
ktom

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What it comes down to is that the save effect must:

1. Save the character, and

2. Do something that, when considered in combination with applicable continuous effects (and/or active lasting effects), removes the terminal condition.

 

You can only consider things that apply automatically and immediately when determining if you can save.

 

Effectively, if your proposed combo requires you to trigger an ability after you trigger the save, it doesn't work to save from burn/terminal effects.



#29
mplain

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What it comes down to is that the save effect must:

1. Save the character, and

2. Do something that, when considered in combination with applicable continuous effects (and/or active lasting effects), removes the terminal condition.

 

You can only consider things that apply automatically and immediately when determining if you can save.

 

Effectively, if your proposed combo requires you to trigger an ability after you trigger the save, it doesn't work to save from burn/terminal effects.

 

Still, using Jory's ability to save him from Dracarys would *kinda* do something that would remedy the ongoing condition - he wouldт't be killed for having 0 STR anymore, because he'd be out of play and in the discard pile. Why exactly doesn't this work?



#30
istaril

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Still, using Jory's ability to save him from Dracarys would *kinda* do something that would remedy the ongoing condition - he wouldт't be killed for having 0 STR anymore, because he'd be out of play and in the discard pile. Why exactly doesn't this work?

 

Because that's part of the cost, and not the effect.



#31
Zigur

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Possibly because the understanding of "save attempt" doesn't include the cost?



#32
istaril

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Possibly because the understanding of "save attempt" doesn't include the cost?

 

I haven't yet had a chance to really sink my teeth into these new rulings, but I'm not sure 'save effect' needs to be extended into 'save attempt'. The save effect has to consider all current modifiers to someone's STR (including a number of other effects) in order to determine whether it can remedy the ongoing condition. Is factoring other constants/lasting effects really that much of a stretch?

 

For both BMR/Sansa and Jory/Catelyn, it's still the effect that causes the change in game state, and the resultant game state is one where the ongoing condition is remedied.