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Master of Whispers and claim replacement

- - - - - melee

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22 replies to this topic

#1
chipzes

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Everyone seems to agree that an attacking player with Master of Whispers can use Trial by Combat to force everyone else into MIL claim, but for Mirri Maz Duur the consensus seems to be that she only gets one targeted kill even with MoW (and I'm sure it's not intended nor legal to get multiple kills with her from one challenge). I was under the impression that both are the same kind of claim replacement effects so why is Trial by Combat (and it seems Vengeance too) compatible with Master of Whispers and Mirri isn't?

 

Master of Whispers

You may resolve your [Intrigue] claim against any number of opponents of your choice.

 

Trial by Combat

Interrupt: When claim is applied for an [Intrigue] challenge, apply [Military] claim instead.

 

Mirri Maz Duur

Interrupt: When claim is applied for a challenge in which Mirri Maz Duur is attacking alone, choose a character controlled by the losing opponent. Instead of the normal claim effects, kill that character.

 

I've been reading through multiple discussions for all those cards now but I didn't find a clear answer.



#2
mplain

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We don't have a clear answer either. I've sent this question to Nate, we're waiting for his word now.



#3
Zigur

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I don't know much (anything) about melee, but my understanding is this: there's only one claim "effect" when you resolve INT against multiple opponents using Master of Whispers, so there's still only one "claim" to replace - you can't replace parts of the claim against one person but not against another.  In both cases, you replace the normal (and single) claim effect (each player chosen by master of whispers discarding one card at random) to get the replacement effect: for Trial, each player who would have been discarding one card is now choosing a character to kill; for Mirri, you choose and kill a character controlled by the losing opponent.  Note the use of the singular and limitation on whose characters you can actually kill in Mirri's text, compared to the non-specificity of Trial's text, where there's nothing about choosing characters or players.

TL;DR: Mirri changes "each player chosen discards at random" to "I pick and kill;"  Trial changes "each player chosen discards at random" to "each player chosen chooses and kills."



#4
GalacticTaco

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Mirri's text also says "choose a character controlled by the losing opponent", so when you win that challenge, only one opponent is considered a loser, only one character is killed. It replaces claim but isn't considered claim, it's an effect.

Master of whispers allows you to resolve your claim against any opponents. Trial by combat's effect changes the claim for another claim. The essential point is that it is still a claim. That's why it can be applied to multiple opponents while Mirri's interrupt cannot.

#5
mplain

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Killing a character with Mirri is still considered as applying and satisfying claim. For example, Rakharo triggers (check out the explanation here). What resolving claim means is unclear.



#6
mplain

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@istaril just pointed out to me that choosing a character for Mirri's ability happens immediately during the resolution of the interrupt, but killing that character is done after all interrupts are played and claim is actually applied.

 

When claim is applied <...>, choose a character <...>.

Instead of the normal claim effects, kill that character.

 

So this settles it then, even if you do resolve intrigue claim against everyone with Master of Whispers, each resolution would be "kill the character than you've chosen previously", and that single character would be killed (and leave play) once a single instance of claim is applied, so no multiple on-death triggers (e.g. Benjen, Rakharo) are possible.

 

...However, if it does work this way, then if you tried to save that character from the first instance of modified claim, then the second instance would still finish him off, or the third one after that...

 

This interpretation is different from the simple "Mirri doesn't work with Master of Whispers", but it does seem logical and probable to me. You choose a character when the interrupt resolves, and then kill him once for every opponent when claim is applied.



#7
xchan

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...However, if it does work this way, then if you tried to save that character from the first instance of modified claim, then the second instance would still finish him off, or the third one after that...

 

This interpretation is different from the simple "Mirri doesn't work with Master of Whispers", but it does seem logical and probable to me. You choose a character when the interrupt resolves, and then kill him once for every opponent when claim is applied.

 

That's really interesting.... So Targ got another "terminal"kill during melee? Tywin is going to hate this one!



#8
Zigur

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Killing once per opponent suggests there are multiple claim effects, but I'm pretty sure there's just one.



#9
JoePerson

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I'm with Zigur. I'm pretty sure there is just one framework step and therefore only one interrupt window, being 'when claim is applied'.

When Whispers is used it does not apply claim multiple times, it just resolves against everyone.

#10
mplain

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The word of Nate:

 

Hello Nate! 

 

We've discussed it with @istaril and we're still unsure regarding how Master of Whispers (melee title) works with claim replacement effects. Could you please clarify? 

 

   Master of Whispers 
   You may resolve your claim against any number of opponents of your choice.

 

We're not sure what 'resolve claim' means, and how it differs from 'applying claim'. The RRG entry for Replacement Effects seems to suggest that if I replace intrigue claim with something else, it is still considered to be intrigue claim, albeit modified. 

- If I win an intrigue challange as the attacking player and play Trial by Combat, can I make every opponent suffer military claim? 

- If I win an intrigue challange with Mirri Maz Duur attacking alone, can I kill one character for each opponent? If yes, do they have to be all controlled by the losing opponent, or does each character have to be controlled by a different opponent? 

- If I win an intrigue challange as the attacking player, and the losing player plays Vengeance for Elia, can I make each other opponent suffer the intrigue claim along with me? 

Most importantly, could you please explain the difference between different types of replacement effects, if any? 

Thank you very much Nate!

 

Hello, 

- If I win an intrigue challange as the attacking player and play Trial by Combat, can I make every opponent suffer military claim? 

Yes, each opponent you choose will suffer the military claim. 

- If I win an intrigue challange with Mirri Maz Duur attacking alone, can I kill one character for each opponent? If yes, do they have to be all controlled by the losing opponent, or does each character have to be controlled by a different opponent? 
You only choose one character, and that character must be controlled by the player who lost the challenge. Then, when you apply the claim effect, that character dies. Basically, you have created a type of claim that cannot be resolved against the other opponents. It is worth noting too that all claim is applied simultaneously, so the chosen character only dies once. 

- If I win an intrigue challange as the attacking player, and the losing player plays Vengeance for Elia, can I make each other opponent suffer the intrigue claim along with me? 

Yes, the losing player can cause you to suffer the claim instead of him/her, but you still have the option of resolving it against the other opponents. 

Nate

 

tl;dr Master of Whispers works with Trial by Combat and Vengeance for Elia, doesn't work with Mirri Maz Duur.


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#11
chipzes

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you have created a type of claim that cannot be resolved against the other opponents

 

This is the key info here. So in general, claim replacement can work with MoW but in the case of targeted kill it doesn't. I assume it wouldn't work with Dagmer(+Little Bird) either for the same reason.



#12
jrosen9

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This is the key info here. So in general, claim replacement can work with MoW but in the case of targeted kill it doesn't. I assume it wouldn't work with Dagmer(+Little Bird) either for the same reason.

 

I don't think this is completely right.  Its not that its targeted kill that it doesn't work, its that its targeted kill is chose prior to claim being applied.  Basicly, MMD's ability has you choose a character and then makes the claim kill that character so the claim being applied to each player is kill that character not choose and kill a character.

 

If MMD's ability read, "When claim is applied for a challenge in which Mirri Maz Duur is attacking alone, instead of the normal claim effects, choose and kill a character (which they probably would never do given the text on MMD and seastone chair." then you could use that with Master of Whispers to kill multiple characters



#13
chipzes

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I don't think this is completely right.  Its not that its targeted kill that it doesn't work, its that its targeted kill is chose prior to claim being applied.  Basicly, MMD's ability has you choose a character and then makes the claim kill that character so the claim being applied to each player is kill that character not choose and kill a character.

 

If MMD's ability read, "When claim is applied for a challenge in which Mirri Maz Duur is attacking alone, instead of the normal claim effects, choose and kill a character (which they probably would never do given the text on MMD and seastone chair." then you could use that with Master of Whispers to kill multiple characters

But it's only applied once in that case, the character is only killed once and not once for each opponent. So nothing is actually applied to all players as I understand it, you choose once and you resolve once and that's it.



#14
jrosen9

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But it's only applied once in that case, the character is only killed once and not once for each opponent. So nothing is actually applied to all players as I understand it, you choose once and you resolve once and that's it.

 

Correct because claim is all applied one one time.  In the case of MMD you choose once prior to claim being applied and then the claim of kill the chosen character is applied a number of times equal to the number of players chosen with master of whispers all at the same time.  Since its all being applied at the same time its only one death effect.

 

If there was another theoretical card that said "Instead of normal claim, choose and kill a character."  you would get to choose and kill a number of characters equal to the number of players you applied claim to.  However, just like before, if the same character is chosen multiple times in this case he still only dies once (and would only need 1 save).  

 

At least that is how I am interpreting the ruling from Nate.



#15
Khudzlin

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Quote

    - If I win an intrigue challange as the attacking player, and the losing player plays Vengeance for Elia, can I make each other opponent suffer the intrigue claim along with me?


Yes, the losing player can cause you to suffer the claim instead of him/her, but you still have the option of resolving it against the other opponents.

Nate

 

What if the losing player chooses another player? Can I make that player suffer the intrigue claim twice?


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#16
jrosen9

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What if the losing player chooses another player? Can I make that player suffer the intrigue claim twice?

 

I would say yes as Vengeance says that player must satisfy normal claim instead of you.  So they would satisfy the claim for you and for themselves in that situation.



#17
Bomb

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What if the losing player chooses another player? Can I make that player suffer the intrigue claim twice?

 

I think that's a great question.   I believe that answer would be yes.  I can't think of a rule that wouldn't support this.



#18
ktom

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Here is the general principle to take away from Nate's answers:

 

Master of Whispers is NOT a claim replacement. Rather, it is more of a claim modifier - like an effect that raises or lowers the claim number on a player's plot. Effectively, any claim effect that resolves "by player" can be modified to apply to whichever players the attacking player wants (instead of the normal scheme of "only the defending player"). It can modify any claim effect (that takes place during the player's INT challenge) that is resolved "per player," but you have to pay careful attention to which ones are "per player" and which ones aren't. As such:

 

- Trial by Combat replaces the "per player" INT results with the "per player" MIL results, so it can be modified by Master of Whispers to reach more players.

- MMD replaces the "per player" results of the normal claim with the death of a single target character. So just like the death of the single target character cannot be modified to kill more characters if you have a claim of 2 or larger, it also cannot be modified to kill more characters controlled by more opponents if you have Master of Whispers.

- VfE, played by the defending player against Master of Whispers, will lock the chosen player in as the defending player for the challenge. Since VfE will be played after the attacking player has determined which players his modified INT claim will resolve against (this is part of determining the characteristics of the "when claim is applied" triggering condition), the defending player using VfE to deflect the claim that resolves for him/her to another player does not affect any player other than himself/herself and the player chosen to take his/her place. As such, VfE can be used to deflect the defending player's claim responsibility - as defending player - to another player (whether the Master of Whispers had them resolving claim or not), but cannot change any other choice of the attacking Master of Whispers for who else is on the hook for claim. NOTE: that a player chosen by both the Master of Whispers and the defending player triggering VfE would not resolve claim twice (because claim only resolves once). The double choice simply changes their resolution from happening as "other opposing player" (Master of Whispers) to "as if they were the defending player" (VfE).

(Note also that VfE can only be triggered by a losing, defending player; it cannot be triggered by any of the other players chosen to resolve claim.)

 

So, a good way to think of the interaction between claim replacement and Master of Whispers is that if the claim replacementeffect would sidestep claim number modifiers (e.g., MMD kills 1 character only, no matter what your claim is), it probably also sidesteps Master of Whispers. In the special case of VfE and Master of Whispers, the person using VfE can only move the claim responsibility away from them (and to one other person), not make, or re-make, all the claim choices for the Master of Whispers.


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#19
mplain

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Since VfE will be played after the attacking player has determined which players his modified INT claim will resolve against (this is part of determining the characteristics of the "when claim is applied" triggering condition)

 

Wait why? VfE is an interrupt to applying claim, and as such it is played - and resolves - before claim is applied, and thus before Master of Whispers gets to choose against what players to resolve his claim. Isn't that so?



#20
ktom

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No. 

 

Interrupt abilities interrupt the resolution of the triggering condition. This means that certain things are determined about the triggering condition before interrupts can be played - including which cards, characters, players, etc. are likely to be affected by them. An interrupt may change those characteristics, but they have to be set when the triggering condition is created, or else you don't necessarily know who will be able to trigger interrupts.

 

For example, lets say you, Nate and I are playing a Melee game. I am Master of Whispers and I win an INT challenge against Nate. You have an event in hand that says, "Interrupt: When a card would be discarded from your hand, claim 2 power for your faction." Unless the opponents that Master of Whispers intends to resolve claim are determined when the "apply claim" triggering condition is created, you cannot play that card when I win the challenge against Nate because you won't know whether or not you have to discard a card for claim until after the Interrupt window is closed - never to reopen again.







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