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Jenye Westerling [SPOLER]

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32 replies to this topic

#1
cooleo1c

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A exclusive "spoler" is up on Thrones of Minnesota right now! Join Cameron and I as we discuss the Stark cards coming in Lions of Casterly Rock.
 

 


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#2
KruppSteel

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Thanks guys, great work as always!


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#3
CameronD

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Thanks guys, great work as always!

 

Thanks buddy!



#4
Reclusive

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Finally someone respecting the traditions.


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#5
Khudzlin

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OP combo incoming: The Wolf King and Green Dreams on Jeyne, with a knelt Stark Lord or King character (to be allowed to trigger her ability). Look at each card in your deck in order and choose which one is on top.


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#6
FedericoFasullo

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~op indeed



#7
sparrowhawk

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OP combo incoming: The Wolf King and Green Dreams on Jeyne, with a knelt Stark Lord or King character (to be allowed to trigger her ability). Look at each card in your deck in order and choose which one is on top.

 

This is very clever. The moment I saw Green Dreams, I thought of the old chains for Maesters. Good spot, monsieur!

 

2 card infinite self-stand is just so obviously broken. Not to mention design-space restrictive. We can have no more non-loyal "trigger on kneel or stand" attachments because of this oversight (without a trait requirement).

 

I can't believe they haven't learnt the lesson of 1E's Bran + Tyrion's Thug (which won a tournament). In that instance, they errata'd the wrong card (Bran) when it was the Thug's stand (no limit) that was the main issue, demonstrating their deep understanding of tap card games. Anybody with a card pedigree knows that you don't have untap, flicker or return effects without safety valves (max. X times per phase). That's why I wrote "limit once per phase" in every stand effect here.

 

Here's another example of how infinite combos can be created.

 

Doran's Bounty

Martell non-loyal attachment, cost 0

Interrupt: when this character leaves play, gain gold equal to the number of plot cards in your used pile.

 

Looks like a late Valar set-up card - except a Night's Watch Sun deck that survives until turn 6 can draw X cards and gain X gold (where X can be any number mindful of decking loss) with Arry and the above hypothetical attachment.

 

Any untap or return to hand or flicker (out and back into play) effect must be safeguarded to allow freedom of future design. This is common knowledge for anyone with a Magic pedigree who has exploited these combos, almost 101 in card design.

 

They even have faction card kneel as an elegant 1E "Limited Response" which is another safety valve to prevent powerful combos. God forbid we ever get a "stand faction card" effect!

 

The loyalty mechanic can open up design space that would be otherwise restricted because of a degenerate combo. But here they have 2 non-loyal cards released very close to each other in the same faction that generate infinite stand. Is there no quality control at FFG?

 

This supports my suspicion (voiced before) that the Design A Team have be reallocated to L5R. Which saddens me greatly. Perhaps I'm over-reacting but it is poor basic design principles to not have a limit on stand.

 

(Thanks to Thrones of Minnesota for the spoiler, sirs.)


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#8
istaril

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This supports my suspicion (voiced before) that the Design A Team have be reallocated to L5R. Which saddens me greatly. Perhaps I'm over-reacting but it is poor basic design principles to not have a limit on stand.

 

I don't disagree that not having a limit on Jeyne seems like an oversight, but I don't see why that has to have anything to do with some behind-the-scenes FFG decision, nefarious or conspiratory. I mean, can you really both claim that their design "A" team would definitely have caught this, but also is responsible for the metagame you dislike so much for Thrones? :P 

The design credit for the core is Michael Hurley and Nate French - and they've been pretty open about how Danny has been working with Nate and taking an increasingly active role. I don't see any evidence for assuming there's a shunting of major resources away from Thrones and to L5R.



#9
Vorrt

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Could someone outline the steps for the cycling of you Stark deck?  I think I'm missing a spoiler or something along the way.



#10
michaelius

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Really great job on design team part ;)

 

It's not like we had Shadow Bob the Appreatice Maester to teach us why unlimited standing effects are bad ;)

 

Congratulations



#11
stahlwolle

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Could someone outline the steps for the cycling of you Stark deck?  I think I'm missing a spoiler or something along the way.


I don't get it either....

#12
LordOWar

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OK - Here's the relative text of this 3 card combo.

 

********************************************************************************************************
Jeyne Westerling (Stark Character)
Action: Kneel Jane Westerling to choose and stand a Stark King or Lord Character
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Green Dreams (0 cost neutral attachment)
Reaction: After attached character is knelt, look at the top card of your deck. You may put that card on the bottom of your deck.
*******************************************************************************************************
The Wolf King (2 cost Stark attachment)
Stark Character Only
Attached Character gains the King trait and does not kneel  when declared as an attacker in a Military Challenge
*******************************************************************************************************

Watch the video in the original post to see the image of The Wolf King

So you put both of the above attachments on Jeyne. She is now a Queen and Stark King. Then kneel her to stand her, while at the same time using Green Dreams to put the top card of your deck on the bottom of your deck. Repeating the action over and over again until you have the card that you want on top of your deck.

 

This also combos well with Gates of Winterfell so that you can actually draw the card you top of your deck (if it's a Stark card). Also, Jane is a Lady so you can attach Seal of the Hand to her and do it again, after you've used Gates of Winterfell or some other draw mechanic.



#13
istaril

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OK - Here's the relative text of this 3 card combo.

 

********************************************************************************************************
Jane Westerling (Stark Character)
Action: Kneel Jane Westerling to choose and stand a Stark King or Lord Character
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Green Dreams (0 cost neutral attachment)
Reaction: After attached character is knelt, look at the top card of your deck. You may put that card on the bottom of your deck.
*******************************************************************************************************
The Wolf King (2 cost Stark attachment)
Stark Character Only
Attached Character gains the King trait and does not kneel  when declared as an attacker in a Military Challenge
*******************************************************************************************************

Watch the video in the original post to see the image of The Wolf King

So you put both of the above attachments on Jane. She is now a Queen and Stark King. Then kneel her to stand her, while at the same time using Green Dreams to put the top card of your deck on the bottom of your deck. Repeating the action over and over again until you have the card that you want on top of your deck.

 

This also combos well with Gates of Winterfell so that you can actually draw the card you top of your deck (if it's a Stark card). Also, Jane is a Lady so you can attach Seal of the Hand to her and do it again, after you've used Gates of Winterfell or some other draw mechanic.

 

You're missing one card required; another kneeling stark lord or king. You cannot initiate Jeyne's ability if there isn't a valid target for it that would change the game state - because you cannot take into account the costs of her ability in assessing its ability to change the game state. So yes, the 4 card combo does in fact work.

 

Attaching Seal of the Hand to her is completely irrelevant to the combo, and doesn't help at all (except to counteract your opponent's kneel, I suppose)



#14
LordOWar

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You're missing one card required; another kneeling stark lord or king. You cannot initiate Jeyne's ability if there isn't a valid target for it that would change the game state - because you cannot take into account the costs of her ability in assessing its ability to change the game state. So yes, the 4 card combo does in fact work.

 

Attaching Seal of the Hand to her is completely irrelevant to the combo, and doesn't help at all (except to counteract your opponent's kneel, I suppose)

 

That's very confusing. She can't trigger her ability unless there's a kneeling Stark Lord or King, however she doesn't have to target that standing Lord or King, she can instead choose herself.because at the time she chooses the target she is a valid target. Do I have that right ?



#15
LordOWar

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Usually people are for infinite combos being nerfed with an errata of some sort, but this combo requires 4 cards and it's slightly better than the Tyrell event Olenna's Cunning

 

I'm not sure how over powered it is so I'll reserve judgement.

 

The cool thing about the combo requiring a kneeling Stark Lord or King in play is that once you've got the card you want on top of your deck you can then stop using Jeyne on herself and can then use her to stand that other kneeling King or Lord you have in play.



#16
YEEZUS

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dies to doom blade


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#17
istaril

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That's very confusing. She can't trigger her ability unless there's a kneeling Stark Lord or King, however she doesn't have to target that standing Lord or King, she can instead choose herself.because at the time she chooses the target she is a valid target. Do I have that right ?

 

Correct. The check as to whether you can meet the play restrictions/initiate the ability happens first (Step 1, RR p10), but choosing the target is Step 5 of initiating an ability (RR, p10), which happens after paying costs (Step 4, RR p10)



#18
Abyssalfury

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Usually people are for infinite combos being nerfed with an errata of some sort, but this combo requires 4 cards and it's slightly better than the Tyrell event Olenna's Cunning

 

I'm not sure how over powered it is so I'll reserve judgement.

 

I think the primary issue would be people going through their entire deck, potentially multiple times a turn, causing a massive slow down of the game, more so than it being amazingly broken. It would be very disruptive, and it's an easy thing to errata.

 

Anyway, I agree that they've been doing LCG's long enough that they should have picked this up. Like maybe get a poster printed out and put it up in the designer's room with 'Have you checked these things to see if you've made an infinite combo, again'?



#19
sparrowhawk

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Just want to point out you need any kneeling Stark Lord or King to start infinite stand with Jeyne + Wolf King. Does not need to be yours.

 

Green Dreams is just the current benefit effect. If this does not become an errata, then we cannot have ANY cards that trigger off kneel or stand (Jeyne and Wolf King are both non-loyal) unless there is some sort of trait restriction. Then that creates a design restriction on trait manipulation effects.

 

Once they have an errata, I wonder if they will fix other stuff? I hope not. Keep errata to a minimum (still traumatised by Carrion Birds). Netrunner existed for years with just 1 errata (Pawn).

 

I'd laugh if, just like Bran + Thug, their errata is: "The Wolf King reads 'Lord character only' instead of 'Stark character only'"....



#20
Solaris

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That's very confusing. She can't trigger her ability unless there's a kneeling Stark Lord or King, however she doesn't have to target that standing Lord or King, she can instead choose herself.because at the time she chooses the target she is a valid target. Do I have that right ?


They just need to errata her to say she cannot target herself, and this "infinite combo" will be broken.
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