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Meta and card efficiency discussion


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47 replies to this topic

#1
ultimate26

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Hey guys, i played the first campaign mission about 3 times to get the highest score possible and felt like talking about strategies and card usage.

 

I noticed that cards like Dig Deep, Hard Knocks, Hyper Awareness and Physical training(all from the same cycle) feel inefficient, costing you an action to deploy it and 2 resources followed by more resources per desired point.

 

Arent the skills that immediately give you +2 to a stat and draw a card much better? maybe a rich rogue could benefit from stat boosting with tons of money but so far i feel like its too expensive for what it does, what do you guys think?

 

so far a very strong combo i feel is flashlight + scavenge, if flashlight is gone, you can immediately recover it with scavenge on an easy shroud location.

 

 


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#2
Lono

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Could be mistaken but I don't think you get to discard Flashlight once it runs out of supplies. Forbidden knowledge, a similar asset, does specify you discard it once it has run out of tokens but no similar mentions on Flashlight. 

 

Like you, not a super fan of stat boosting assets like dig deep because of the time/ressources costs. I prefer cards which reduce difficulty or manipulate the chaos tokens and or results. 

 

As for meta, I think right now beging able to hit for 2 damage is a must with the amount of combat present, you can't get stuck on enemies for long. 

 

PS: I play mostly on hard difficulty. 



#3
ultimate26

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Hmm, i had the impression that all cards get discarded when running out of ammo or charges.



#4
BaraBob

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Hmm, i had the impression that all cards get discarded when running out of ammo or charges.

You should check out the rules reference guide. From page 21 regarding 'Uses': 

Some cards with this keyword bear text that causes the card to be discarded if it has no uses remaining. If the card contains no such text, it remains in play even if out of uses.

 

It would make no sense that you automatically drop a gun just because it has no bullets. Would make extra ammo a lot less usefull.



#5
MightyToenail

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Could be mistaken but I don't think you get to discard Flashlight once it runs out of supplies. Forbidden knowledge, a similar asset, does specify you discard it once it has run out of tokens but no similar mentions on Flashlight. 
 
Like you, not a super fan of stat boosting assets like dig deep because of the time/ressources costs. I prefer cards which reduce difficulty or manipulate the chaos tokens and or results. 
 
As for meta, I think right now beging able to hit for 2 damage is a must with the amount of combat present, you can't get stuck on enemies for long. 
 
PS: I play mostly on hard difficulty.


I believe this is right.

#6
ultimate26

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thanks for the clarification, i guess you can only discard the flashlight when equipping another one handed item.



#7
starhawk77

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With the stat booster assets, you're paying a bit of a premium in exchange for repeatability and flexibility. You can use the effect as often as you need it (versus the one-shot skill cards) and you can pump a particular stat by +4 or +5 if you really need to (say, to ensure a Shotgun kill). They're not the most efficient cards, but they're not meant to be. There's value in always having access to an effect whenever you need it most.



#8
Lono

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Since we're on the topic of card efficiency, I favor dedicated skill cards like Overpower since it comes with +2 to a skill and I get to draw another card if successful. Stat booster asset cost me a card, won't replace it and cost me actions to get a decent + 2 or + 3 bonus. 

 

The more I play, the more I favor card draws effects which I can use either for the card itself or throw them in skill checks as needed. 



#9
ultimate26

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I feel like the cantrip series are great specially the fight and intelligence one since those are 2 of the most used stats, double wild one is great too at the expense of the draw effect.


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#10
kizerman86

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RE: Assets that provide the constant option to buff at an additional cost (like Physical Training, Dig Deep, etc...)

 

IMO they can be MUCH better in some decks than others.  My Skids deck really wants to find Physical Training and the Derringer, for example.  But Skids gets $$$ more easily than others.

 

I think they will pop in and out of the meta for a bit (especially for Rogue investigators), but after a couple deluxes/cycles we will likely have more options to buff key stats that are simply more efficient for *most* decks.



#11
phillosmaster

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The resource pumping talents are hard to use.  I have used them to good effect, but I find it's usually only late game that I can even try to use them after I've setup all my must have assets.  Once you've purchased the majority of what you need in your deck the resources can start to pile up and these cards puts them to good used. Investigators with access to the Rogue faction have an easier time of it because they can use Burglary to ramp their resources.  Also Rogues have access to Hot Streak.

 

That said I could see omitting those cards entirely from a deck build quite easily.



#12
ShadowcatX2000

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I dislike the cards myself, favoring, like you, the cyclers. 

 

Probably a portion of it will be the cost efficiency of the rest of your deck. You can afford a little inefficiency here and there in exchange for power, if you have to use the resource pumpers for that, then so be it, but IMO they are probably the weakest option. 



#13
Gaffa

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I value the Skill Talents far more than the Skills themselves, because assets on board are better than cards in hand, especially situational cards like Skills that can only be discarded to one of the four potential skill types. Too many of the Neutral Skills played also hurts you insofar as they replace themselves with at minimum two painful cards, and that if you cycle through your deck too fast you end up taking Sanity damage from reshuffling.

 

But my main concern is not wanting too many situational cards in my deck. I cannot play Overpower, for instance, unless I need to test Combat; I'd rather have a card I can choose to play onto the board or discard for a Combat boost, even if the boost is less than Overpower's, than waste a card slot on a card that only boosts Combat. The Skill Talents also pay for themselves numerous times over in longer scenarios. If the Neutral Skills had mismatched icons I'd favor them a bit more highly; I'd rather have a Combat/Intellect spread than Combat/Combat say. I also prefer the class-specific Skills for their useful and interesting boosts to what the Skill is trying to do (except Opportunist, which doesn't help enough).

 

That being said, different heroes and decks can certainly use the quick boosts of Neutral Skills, and I'm using a few myself in my first decks. But I still don't want too many in my deck; I want cards useful in more than one situation for most of my deck.



#14
ShadowcatX2000

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But my main concern is not wanting too many situational cards in my deck. I cannot play Overpower, for instance, unless I need to test Combat; I'd rather have a card I can choose to play onto the board or discard for a Combat boost, even if the boost is less than Overpower's, than waste a card slot on a card that only boosts Combat. The Skill Talents also pay for themselves numerous times over in longer scenarios. If the Neutral Skills had mismatched icons I'd favor them a bit more highly; I'd rather have a Combat/Intellect spread than Combat/Combat say.

 

That's interesting because I would say that a combat / intellect skill was trash and far inferior to a combat / combat skill. I know for a fact if I put the combat / combat skill in my deck I will be fighting and it will be significantly useful, because combat is a skill I can choose to capitalize on or ignore. (Ie. I'm not going to put it in Wendy, because Wendy has other options, but for Roland, heck ya I'm running it.) 

 

Different strokes for different folks I guess. 



#15
dboeren

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Disclaimer: I have only played solo so my impressions are based on that

 

Initially I had a lower opinion of the skill pumpers for the reasons you stated.  However, now I feel this is related to playstyle.  Starting out I tended to "gear up" my investigator quite a bit - spending a lot of resources to send them into battle fully equipped.  If you play like this then you will likely find that your resources are pinched and you cannot afford skill pumpers.  As I have gained more experience though, I'm migrating towards running lean and mean with my investigators and having fewer assets in play but saving the resources and actions that would have been spent on them which puts more time back on my Doom clock and fewer turns also means fewer Encounter cards to deal with.  Now I've got more money to spend if needed on a pumper or higher priced event.  Yes, I still take the +2 "cantrip" style skill cards too, those are excellent both for their skill boost and also as deck slimmers.

 

At times the pumper can be held in hand and if you get a more efficient asset and they aren't needed can be converted into a skill boost.  For instance, if you draw your .45 Pistol then maybe you don't need that combat pumper anymore?  It just depends on the deck and also what your base stats are.

 

But it's definitely useful to be able to channel unneeded resources into important skill checks, especially when they are long odds like fighting a boss enemy.  Oh, I just need to hit this big ugly monster three times in a row?  NO PROBLEM, because I've saved up a couple of +2 skill cards and have a pile of cash to convert into skill bonuses with my pumper.

 

Basically, the concept of "expensive" only exists if resources are scarce.  But this game seems to have a very different economy than LotR and you don't have to spend as constantly so cash is more plentiful.



#16
ultimate26

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Someone needs to make a formula for efficient usage of resources because if a player only gets 1 card and 1 resource per turn and cards can be used for free through symbol discard then the resources are more scarce overall unless you run rouge type deck with lots of resource gainers.

 

cantrips when the card draw is triggered is pretty much a 0 cost 0 card net profit, if i gotta pay over 3 resources total to trigger a single stat boost doesnt feel too worth it. The two cards compared next to each other make it clear that the boosters are inefficient cost wise.

 

0cc  = +2 to a specific stat and card draw if success causing this to be a 0cc 0 card investment

 

vs

 

2cc + 2 resources = +2 to a stat with the option to choose between 2 stat types.

 

4 resources and one card disparity is pretty damm huge, would love for someone to show me in what scenario this would be a good investment, maybe if in the future they print out a card that allows you to double the effect per spent resource then it may be more viable.



#17
ShadowcatX2000

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Someone needs to make a formula for efficient usage of resources because if a player only gets 1 card and 1 resource per turn and cards can be used for free through symbol discard then the resources are more scarce overall unless you run rouge type deck with lots of resource gainers.
 
cantrips when the card draw is triggered is pretty much a 0 cost 0 card net profit, if i gotta pay over 3 resources total to trigger a single stat boost doesnt feel too worth it. The two cards compared next to each other make it clear that the boosters are inefficient cost wise.
 
0cc  = +2 to a specific stat and card draw if success causing this to be a 0cc 0 card investment
 
vs
 
2cc + 2 resources = +2 to a stat with the option to choose between 2 stat types.
 
4 resources and one card disparity is pretty damm huge, would love for someone to show me in what scenario this would be a good investment, maybe if in the future they print out a card that allows you to double the effect per spent resource then it may be more viable.


It isn't a good investment the first time you use it. Neither are most assets. The 10th time you use it you will probably be pretty damn glad you have it.

#18
Gaffa

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4 resources and one card disparity is pretty damm huge, would love for someone to show me in what scenario this would be a good investment, maybe if in the future they print out a card that allows you to double the effect per spent resource then it may be more viable.

 

It's a good investment because it permanently increases your options for two skill icons, as opposed to the discard and reactionary playstyle of just stacking Skill cards.

 

They're wonderful cards right now, and they don't need new cards to make them viable.

 



#19
phillosmaster

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I think their main benefit is it allows you to turn on a route to successful skills checks that otherwise would be blocked to you (paying resources to win skill checks).  In this game you can go for turns without spending credits, Rogues get credits easier, you can lower your cost curve in your deck to maximize resource gain, at end game when your assets are set up resources can pile up ...

 

In all those cases you may not have the icons in hand to push you to a comfortable number of a skill check, and this allows you to capitalize on a potentially under used (and therefore wasted) aspect of your investigator.  I think they are a definite utility in the card pool.  I also think your deck build and play style can make them pretty impossible to utilize effectively.  So that seems like a good card design to me.



#20
TripleARay

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I'll start off my response to this with a caveat; the skill assets "might" be okay for solo play.

 

In multiplayer, they are trash. 3-4 players, the 2nd and 3rd scenarios especially there is simply no time for frivolous use of resources that might "eventually" be efficient or pay itself off. Enemies and treacheries are humming out of the encounter deck, the doom clock is ticking and every action an investigator takes has to have an impact. Someone up above said "the 10th time you use it it won't feel inefficient" or something to that effect; this will literally never happen, ever.

 

For this reason the cantrip skill cards are absolutely some of the best things you can include in your deck, especially if you aren't taking the LOTR approach that has become common and tailoring your deck to a scenario. You may not want to fight, but even daisy can use an overpower to take out a rat or a cultist that is bothering her and draw a card to boot. You may have no Will checks in deck but being able to buff yourself or an investigator next to you during a bad treachery and draw a card for zero actions/resources is amazing. The list goes on but you get the point; in a multiplayer campaign, every skill cantrip is valuable because every investigator has a primary function, and you will want to group up for the hard parts.

 

At this point I will give an obligatory "Skids with Hot Streak can do whatever he wants" and asset skills might be good for him. Even then, you are blind spending resources that might just get blown out with the auto fail token, so enjoy that gamble.

 

TLDR - Cantrip skills are some of the best cards in the game. Include as many as you can shove in your deck while keeping the ability to handle enemies, clues and whatever your primary function is. Don't waste time on skill assets.


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