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Roose Bolton

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Best Answer ktom , 16 December 2016 - 03:18 PM

The sacrifice is a cost. He leaves play in Step 4.

Compare his text to the text on King Robert's Warhammer, which works the way you suggest (and is arguably the clearer way to word an effect like this). When you make that comparison, it makes it seem that Roose's wording was probably deliberately chosen to make sure he does leave play, even if his effect is canceled.

 

The disconnect with referencing his current STR to determine X (which can't be done if he has already left play) is probably best resolved by remembering that you are going to have to determine X in Step 1 in order to check target eligibility and play restrictions. (For example, if Roose is the weakest character in play, you can't trigger the ability, even if you have a way to boost his STR before choosing targets.) The argument would be that for a triggered ability without a lasting effect (such as this one), X would be set, and remain unchanged, at this point in Step 1, and not re-determined or re-calculated when the targets are actually chosen in Step 5. (Similar to the way that once a cost of X is determined, the value of X in the triggered ability does not change if the cost is modified.)

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7 replies to this topic

#1
mplain

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If the ability is cancelled with Treachery, does Roose stay in play?

 

* * * * *

 

The way I read it, you  choose targets first, then the ability's effects initiate (and can be cancelled with Treachery), then they resolve and you sacrifice Roose to kill the chosen characters. So if the ability is cancelled, Roose stays in play.

The card is probably deliberately worded this way, because it checks Roose's current STR (not his printed STR), so if you sacrificed him first (during Step 4: Pay Costs, as normal), then the X would always fail to reference him (during Step 5 Choose Targets) and return 0. Is that correct?


#2
istaril

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If the ability is cancelled with Treachery, does Roose stay in play?

 

* * * * *

 

The way I read it, you  choose targets first, then the ability's effects initiate (and can be cancelled with Treachery), then they resolve and you sacrifice Roose to kill the chosen characters. So if the ability is cancelled, Roose stays in play.

The card is probably deliberately worded this way, because it checks Roose's current STR (not his printed STR), so if you sacrificed him first (during Step 4: Pay Costs, as normal), then the X would always fail to reference him (during Step 5 Choose Targets) and return 0. Is that correct?

 

 

Could you post Roose's text, especially as it's not available here?



#3
mplain

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 House Stark. Non-Loyal.
Character. Cost: 6. STR: 4. 

Ally. House Bolton. Lord.

Reaction: After you win a challenge in which Roose Bolton is attacking, choose up to X total STR worth of characters controlled by the losing opponent. X is Roose Bolton's STR. Sacrifice Roose Bolton to kill each of those characters.



#4
FedericoFasullo

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sacrificing him is still a cost, I believe there's nothing in the text that can lead to another interpretation :\

 

so he doesnt stay in play



#5
ktom

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✓  Best Answer

The sacrifice is a cost. He leaves play in Step 4.

Compare his text to the text on King Robert's Warhammer, which works the way you suggest (and is arguably the clearer way to word an effect like this). When you make that comparison, it makes it seem that Roose's wording was probably deliberately chosen to make sure he does leave play, even if his effect is canceled.

 

The disconnect with referencing his current STR to determine X (which can't be done if he has already left play) is probably best resolved by remembering that you are going to have to determine X in Step 1 in order to check target eligibility and play restrictions. (For example, if Roose is the weakest character in play, you can't trigger the ability, even if you have a way to boost his STR before choosing targets.) The argument would be that for a triggered ability without a lasting effect (such as this one), X would be set, and remain unchanged, at this point in Step 1, and not re-determined or re-calculated when the targets are actually chosen in Step 5. (Similar to the way that once a cost of X is determined, the value of X in the triggered ability does not change if the cost is modified.)



#6
mplain

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Huh. Then I just don't understand why they didn't word him as "sacrifice to choose and kill". Okay then, thanks!



#7
kaustin

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Huh. Then I just don't understand why they didn't word him as "sacrifice to choose and kill". Okay then, thanks!

 

I assume they wanted to avoid confusion where his strength is increased and if it said "sacrifice" first, some people might think it was his strength after he had left play (not including attachments, etc.)



#8
ktom

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I think it's just something that comes up in FFG templating every so often (for most of their games; certainly in AGoT 1st Ed). When the card ability involves a particularly complicated targeting requirement or triggering condition, that information is put before the cost in the ability text, even though targets are chosen after costs are paid in the initiation sequence.

 

Generally, not all abilities are templated as "Trigger: <triggering condition and play restrictions> <cost> <target restriction> <effect>." It should not be presumed the order of ability text exactly mirrors the order of initiation, or that just because it comes after the target restrictions/descriptions in the text, it cannot be a cost.