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Rogue One Cards Announced for Destiny - Will LCG Follow?

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#41
Mattropolis

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I feel like, the argument people make is "well the extra wait the LCG takes is worth it because then they can nail the theme more", but I really don't see it.

 

Zeb's set is a good (horrible) example, but I could name a TON of them. Other than his objective being named 'The Last Warrior' and coming with his Bow Rifle, where is the Zeb theme at all in that set? Like none of the actual game text feels particularly "Zeb-ish". The fate card, Defenses enhancement, and Freelance guy have zero connection to Zeb. And we knew he was one of the last warriors of his species and carried a Bow rifle since season 1. So what did the wait time even accomplish? Why did I have to wait two years to get a Zeb with some hastily pasted on names to some abilities?


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#42
Rio

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I feel like, the argument people make is "well the extra wait the LCG takes is worth it because then they can nail the theme more", but I really don't see it.
 
Zeb's set is a good (horrible) example, but I could name a TON of them. Other than his objective being named 'The Last Warrior' and coming with his Bow Rifle, where is the Zeb theme at all in that set? Like none of the actual game text feels particularly "Zeb-ish". The fate card, Defenses enhancement, and Freelance guy have zero connection to Zeb. And we knew he was one of the last warriors of his species and carried a Bow rifle since season 1. So what did the wait time even accomplish? Why did I have to wait two years to get a Zeb with some hastily pasted on names to some abilities?


You can now wait 3 months for a hastily put together Jyn card in Destiny!

#43
Rio

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You actually didn't provide any insight into what you believe the games flaws. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 
 
Game is simple to pickup, certainly not simple to master. Its like saying an engagement is SIMPLE in SW:LCG...sure the mechanics are simple... the decisions are not. 
 
And I fail to see how the game is shallow.
 
And as for cash grab... had they put 1 legendary in a box and printed half the cards unplayable ALA Magic..I would agree...but they didn't do that. You can play this game competitively for similar to the cost of the LCG over a year.


Here is my post from Facebook, it's not a troll post at all however it did become one eventually. It had so much hostility as I was trying to explain my viewpoints on the game.

Played my first games last night to a resounding, meh. It could be that I rolled nothing but blank die during both games, but it's frustrating not being able to do anything. I also hated how the resources were random, and not renewable IE mana or any other resources in any other card game ever, all you can count on are the 2 each turn so you either save for the big cards or never play them. I really don't like the dice, they are crazy big, cumbersome and don't roll worth ****. I also didnt like the back and forth pace of the game.... My wife liked it however.

This was all I said.

After playing several different games of it and attempting to put together decks with my set of starters and about 26 packs, I still feel the same way.

The game is a generic as generic can be, they have 3 colors that represent the same thing in a hero and villians deck. There really isnt a "feel" to a struggle between good and evil. The LCG has the dial creeping up, Destiny just has Blue cards that say villian on the bottom. It's not the force. It's not Star Wars.

You just play attachments on your dude and roll the dice and hope to get attack, and hope to use the attack before your opponent takes them away.

It is a cash grab, I understand that you don't need legendaries to play the game, however you DO need rares. Which means in a box you will only get 30 of them, and some may not be what you want or need. So you're buying multiple packs just to get the cards you need to play the game. That's like MTG making basic lands rares. That's a cash grab.

#44
tierdal

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1) Ok so first let me state...thank you for being civil. I was certainly skirting civility in my response to you

2) Secondly, my response was not that I have a problem with you not liking the game, only that I found your attacks on it without warrant/thought.

3) Third...thanks for posting this see below for my inline responses

4) Anyone who calls somone a troll or flames them for expressing an opinion that they don't hold is a jerk. It sucks there are so many of them around. But as long as you put forth your ideas with class, inteligence, and thought...your views should never be mocked,.

 

 

Here is my post from Facebook, it's not a troll post at all however it did become one eventually. It had so much hostility as I was trying to explain my viewpoints on the game.

Played my first games last night to a resounding, meh. It could be that I rolled nothing but blank die during both games, but it's frustrating not being able to do anything. Game has luck, blanks happen. Well constructed decks and good play alleviate most of this. You will lose games because of crappy rolls... but the same can be said for any game. In the last 3-4 tournes I've consistantly seen the better players rise to the top so this game is far from low skill luck. There are important decisions to make and timing matters. Very much like deciding HOW to strike during an engagement in the LCG

 

I also hated how the resources were random, and not renewable IE mana or any other resources in any other card game ever, all you can count on are the 2 each turn so you either save for the big cards or never play them. Game is designed around this. most cards cost 1-2. 3+ you have to plan/build around. not sure your card pool but there ARE permanent resourse generators and ways to spike your economy.

 

I really don't like the dice, they are crazy big, cumbersome and don't roll worth ****. I also didnt like the back and forth pace of the game.... My wife liked it however. This is an opinion, and I don't agree...but if it is how you feel then nothing I can say can make you like the dice :P

This was all I said.

After playing several different games of it and attempting to put together decks with my set of starters and about 26 packs, I still feel the same way. 2x of each starter and 1x box i + trading is the easiest/cheapest way to jump into this if you want to make competitive decks. Otherwise RNG will make building consistant decks a PITA.

The game is a generic as generic can be, they have 3 colors that represent the same thing in a hero and villians deck. There really isnt a "feel" to a struggle between good and evil. The LCG has the dial creeping up, Destiny just has Blue cards that say villian on the bottom. It's not the force. It's not Star Wars.This is not an asymetrical game. It is not meant to have a feel of struggle between light and dark. It is meant to see Jyn Erso fight Darth Maul. That said - the colors are brilliant and all support  different styles of play. Tri color is a thing, mono is a thing... the options are near endless.

You just play attachments on your dude and roll the dice and hope to get attack, and hope to use the attack before your opponent takes them away. Yes. But you could dumb the LCG down to this too. You deploy dudes and attack and hope your attacks get through faster than your opponents. The fun in this game is from the TACTICAL decisions. What do you use your single action for. Similar to the LCG and engagements - how you strike is more important than almost anything in the LCG...and how you use your action here is the single most important decision. Do you go for dmg before they mess with your dice? Do you mess with their dice? Do you roll another character to have all dice in pool for re-rolls? There are so many decisions to make, that is the fun.

It is a cash grab, I understand that you don't need legendaries to play the game, however you DO need rares. Which means in a box you will only get 30 of them, and some may not be what you want or need. So you're buying multiple packs just to get the cards you need to play the game. That's like MTG making basic lands rares. That's a cash grab. FFG is a business. Everything they do is to grab cash. That said - the distribution system for this game is not the least bit scammy. You buy a box for 87 dollars. You get 6 legendaries. You can easily trade for things you need with others. If you pull a vader...you can get half the cost of your box back! A lot of people have gotten full play sets just from selling and rebuying boxes. Not everyone can do this (cuz you know, economics) but the game is far from a scam. 1) The cards are all valuable...unlike MTG that purposely prints JUNK cards 2) 6 Legendaries a box gives you ALOT of trade value for your investment 3) You can easily spend a little more than an LCG per year on Destiny and have 1 (if not mulitple) worlds quality competitive decks. In Magic you spend 500-1000 a quarter for this. So ... this is the last game I would call a "cash grab"



#45
TheJanitor

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You can now wait 3 months for a hastily put together Jyn card in Destiny!


While it fails to capture the nature of her tremendously horrible motivational speech, it does promote behavior that is continually unexpected.
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#46
TheJanitor

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Double post

#47
Rio

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I think what I dont like most about Destiny is its lack of action or reactions. I want to play Dodge or Block in response to my opponent resolving their dice. Not forgo my entire turn to discard damage that may or may not be coming my way. To me that's counter intuitive to a game I want to play.

I love Star wars, I love card games, and I love rolling dice. I should LOVE Destiny, but I don't.

I have no issues with rare cards being good or harder to get, I do however have an issue with them being the entire building block of a deck. I think on FB you said 15 to 20 cards in a deck should be dice cards, that's my issue. There is no world where you can even play Destiny without rares. In MTG you can play entire games with uncommons and Commons and not have a single rare in a deck. That's my issue with this game, and why I think it's distribution model is going to hurt it in the long run. You can't do that.
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#48
yodaman

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Personally, I've been enjoying both games.  I wasn't sure about Destiny, but I gave it a try and ended up liking it.   I'm still a bigger fan of the LCG model though and given the choice, I'd rather still play the LCG.  But I've decided to try my hand at playing 2 games now as opposed to only playing the LCG and it is nice to get some variety in game play.

 

One thing that is somewhat amusing is this thread literally has about 10 times more posts than the thread over on the Destiny boards announcing the new Destiny cycle. 


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#49
TheJanitor

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I think what I dont like most about Destiny is its lack of action or reactions. I want to play Dodge or Block in response to my opponent resolving their dice. Not forgo my entire turn to discard damage that may or may not be coming my way. To me that's counter intuitive to a game I want to play.
I love Star wars, I love card games, and I love rolling dice. I should LOVE Destiny, but I don't.
I have no issues with rare cards being good or harder to get, I do however have an issue with them being the entire building block of a deck. I think on FB you said 15 to 20 cards in a deck should be dice cards, that's my issue. There is no world where you can even play Destiny without rares. In MTG you can play entire games with uncommons and Commons and not have a single rare in a deck. That's my issue with this game, and why I think it's distribution model is going to hurt it in the long run. You can't do that.


I actually agree with you about the number of rares needed for a deck. I actually almost decided not to play because of that.

The streamlined action system I see as a bonus though. Not only does it make it much easier for new players to learn when they don't have to memorize complex action window, learn the difference between reactions and interrupts, or try to figure out who has priority in each given circumstance, but it does make the choice to use cancel or counter abilities so much harder and more strategic.

#50
Jarratt

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I think what I dont like most about Destiny is its lack of action or reactions. I want to play Dodge or Block in response to my opponent resolving their dice. Not forgo my entire turn to discard damage that may or may not be coming my way. To me that's counter intuitive to a game I want to play.

I love Star wars, I love card games, and I love rolling dice. I should LOVE Destiny, but I don't.


Bear with me. I have played 2 games of Destiny with the starters but I am a designer so I can still see what this game is.

The whole game is about creating dice advantage over your opponent. Not more dice (though being able to roll 4 dice that you can resolve next action is strong) but rather a collection of dice combinations that give you advantage. It isn't about what you roll but what you turn your dice to and what you take away. The entire goal is to eliminate the enemy before you can't draw cards. To me every single action is a block or a dodge. Each action you get is your chance to react to your opponent.

Tierdal states this is tactical and to a certain extent I agree, but unlike the LCG where you get your cards and make several tactical decisions based on the overall strategy of *that hand* in Destiny your strategy is the same, deal damage and get advantage. Each action is a tactical choice based on the overal strategy of the game (which has some influence from your deck/characters on how you achieve the goals).

So really every action is a choice. Do I react to my opponent or do I push forward with my strategy, possibly opening myself up. It is always dodge, block, strike, and occasionally riposte or lunge.

Breaking that down
Dodge/Parry - influence an opponents dice so they can't use it on you
Block - prepare defence (shields are a good example, but this also includes preparing more dice, resources or enhancements)
Strike - use dice against your opponent
Feint - resolve an action to draw out an action from your opponent in a less damaging way.
Riposte - ambush cards that essentially gives you a Parry where you can follow up with a Strike
Lunge - a combination of ambush cards that allows you to lay down a strong attack with little recourse from your opponent.

This is the game. It is most definitely a duel and probably at its most thematic when you stick Vader alone vs Luke alone or any other similar Jedi v Sith duel. But it's equally thematic when it Han and Leia vs an AT-ST and 2 Scout Troopers (these cards might no exist but you get the point). In the gun fight you probably replace my Fencing terminology with something else. For example Block = Cover.

I'm not saying I think the game is super deep. I haven't played it anywhere near enough to know that and I can't actually afford to play it. But I do think this game is all about blocking and dodging, just in a more controlled way. It's not "take that" like the LCG can be where you do something and the opponent has a reaction that shuts you down. It's more measured. It's about gaining advantage little steps at a time.

I doubt this will make you love the game. I don't personally love the game. But I can see why people do.

I do agree on the dice. I don't like them at all. They really take away from the Star Wars theme for me. I would have preferred jelly crystal style dice in the Lightsaber colours. It's weird that Kylo Ren doesn't roll red dice. I also find them impossible to read online. This game sucks to watch on video (sorry Yodaman, you guys are really trying to tell us what thendixe facings are at least). I almost would have preffered clean sides so it just showed blank or gun or resource and the special side was the only side that had the picture of the character. But again that is just my visual thing and something that is easy to get past. I wasn't sure I liked the borderless design of the LCG when I first saw the cards but you what I really like about the LCG now. The freaking card design and art work.

Anyway that's my 2c on Destiny gameplay.

I do hope that LCG gets Rogue One stuff too and soon but I can wait. The freaking Death Star is on its way and next pack is Hera!!!!
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#51
tierdal

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I think what I dont like most about Destiny is its lack of action or reactions. I want to play Dodge or Block in response to my opponent resolving their dice. Not forgo my entire turn to discard damage that may or may not be coming my way. To me that's counter intuitive to a game I want to play.

I love Star wars, I love card games, and I love rolling dice. I should LOVE Destiny, but I don't.

I have no issues with rare cards being good or harder to get, I do however have an issue with them being the entire building block of a deck. I think on FB you said 15 to 20 cards in a deck should be dice cards, that's my issue. There is no world where you can even play Destiny without rares. In MTG you can play entire games with uncommons and Commons and not have a single rare in a deck. That's my issue with this game, and why I think it's distribution model is going to hurt it in the long run. You can't do that.

 

Rio - the entire game is balanced around 1 action per player (ambush not withstanding). That is the tactical nature of the game. If you don't like tactical games, thats fine. But you can't go into this expecting Magic type Counter Spell game. Instead your counter is your action on your turn. Everything is counter action to the last action taken, and your choices are extremely important. Sure you could block his damage but you have done none yourself and now he can block his. Thats the entire game, tactical chocies.

 

Distribution system is literally fine...you just cant treat it like MTG. It is not MTG. Its not 450 cards with 75% of them being useless. Its a collectable game but it is NOT hard to get what you need from 1 box purchase of 87 bucks w/ trading.

 

 

Personally, I've been enjoying both games.  I wasn't sure about Destiny, but I gave it a try and ended up liking it.   I'm still a bigger fan of the LCG model though and given the choice, I'd rather still play the LCG.  But I've decided to try my hand at playing 2 games now as opposed to only playing the LCG and it is nice to get some variety in game play.

 

One thing that is somewhat amusing is this thread literally has about 10 times more posts than the thread over on the Destiny boards announcing the new Destiny cycle. 

 

Most of the destiny community is on facebook at this point, CardgameDB is rather niche.



#52
tierdal

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Bear with me. I have played 2 games of Destiny with the starters but I am a designer so I can still see what this game is.

The whole game is about creating dice advantage over your opponent. Not more dice (though being able to roll 4 dice that you can resolve next action is strong) but rather a collection of dice combinations that give you advantage. It isn't about what you roll but what you turn your dice to and what you take away. The entire goal is to eliminate the enemy before you can't draw cards. To me every single action is a block or a dodge. Each action you get is your chance to react to your opponent.

Tierdal states this is tactical and to a certain extent I agree, but unlike the LCG where you get your cards and make several tactical decisions based on the overall strategy of *that hand* in Destiny your strategy is the same, deal damage and get advantage. Each action is a tactical choice based on the overal strategy of the game (which has some influence from your deck/characters on how you achieve the goals).

So really every action is a choice. Do I react to my opponent or do I push forward with my strategy, possibly opening myself up. It is always dodge, block, strike, and occasionally riposte or lunge.

Breaking that down
Dodge/Parry - influence an opponents dice so they can't use it on you
Block - prepare defence (shields are a good example, but this also includes preparing more dice, resources or enhancements)
Strike - use dice against your opponent
Feint - resolve an action to draw out an action from your opponent in a less damaging way.
Riposte - ambush cards that essentially gives you a Parry where you can follow up with a Strike
Lunge - a combination of ambush cards that allows you to lay down a strong attack with little recourse from your opponent.

This is the game. It is most definitely a duel and probably at its most thematic when you stick Vader alone vs Luke alone or any other similar Jedi v Sith duel. But it's equally thematic when it Han and Leia vs an AT-ST and 2 Scout Troopers (these cards might no exist but you get the point). In the gun fight you probably replace my Fencing terminology with something else. For example Block = Cover.

I'm not saying I think the game is super deep. I haven't played it anywhere near enough to know that and I can't actually afford to play it. But I do think this game is all about blocking and dodging, just in a more controlled way. It's not "take that" like the LCG can be where you do something and the opponent has a reaction that shuts you down. It's more measured. It's about gaining advantage little steps at a time.

I doubt this will make you love the game. I don't personally love the game. But I can see why people do.

I do agree on the dice. I don't like them at all. They really take away from the Star Wars theme for me. I would have preferred jelly crystal style dice in the Lightsaber colours. It's weird that Kylo Ren doesn't roll red dice. I also find them impossible to read online. This game sucks to watch on video (sorry Yodaman, you guys are really trying to tell us what thendixe facings are at least). I almost would have preffered clean sides so it just showed blank or gun or resource and the special side was the only side that had the picture of the character. But again that is just my visual thing and something that is easy to get past. I wasn't sure I liked the borderless design of the LCG when I first saw the cards but you what I really like about the LCG now. The freaking card design and art work.

Anyway that's my 2c on Destiny gameplay.

I do hope that LCG gets Rogue One stuff too and soon but I can wait. The freaking Death Star is on its way and next pack is Hera!!!!

 

 

Kylo is a force user, not military. That is why he is blue.



#53
Jarratt

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Kylo is a force user, not military. That is why he is blue.


Yes I get that. But thematically in Star Wars Sith wield red so there is a thematic disconnect for me. I know why they did it that way. You can't break up Hero and Villain into 2 colours because you have Force User cards that can go either way. But that doesn't stop me thinking it is weird that Kylo Ren rolls blue dice.

#54
Rio

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You are assuming everyone is playing magic competitively, I am not. Magic can and is played by people all over the country who never go to tournaments and just play with a starter and 6 packs they bought. This game can not be played this way. You need to buy a box then you need to trade or sell cards to build ONE deck. Is it cheaper on a competitive level than Magic? Yes. A casual level? No it's not. I spent 130.00 on this game to play with my wife, and I got 2 decks out of it. 2. For 130.00 that's 65.00 a deck. You can not tell me that's not expensive, for casual play. In Magic you can buy 130.00 worth of product and make several different decks. Getting the price down to about 15 to 20 a deck. They will not win tournaments but neither will the 65.00 Destiny deck I built.

#55
yodaman

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Most of the destiny community is on facebook at this point, CardgameDB is rather niche.

Yeah, and some of those forums seem a bit toxic.  Things on cardgamedb are more civilized.


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#56
yodaman

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This game sucks to watch on video (sorry Yodaman, you guys are really trying to tell us what thendixe facings are at least).

None taken.  Personally, I've found it to be quite tricky to do commentary because the actions in Destiny can get so fast paced.  The dice... I keep thinking I'll find a good way to get the dice on camera and the field of play, but with my low-tech set up I'm not sure I can do much different than what I've done so far.



#57
scwont

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None taken.  Personally, I've found it to be quite tricky to do commentary because the actions in Destiny can get so fast paced.  The dice... I keep thinking I'll find a good way to get the dice on camera and the field of play, but with my low-tech set up I'm not sure I can do much different than what I've done so far.

You'd probably need to do something like what I saw FFG do for Imperial Assault on their Worlds stream, which was to have a dedicated camera pointing at a dice tray that the players on stream had to use - i.e. not a simple, low-tech solution!

 

I haven't watched any Destiny videos yet, but looking at pictures of the dice I can see how they would not translate well to a video capturing the whole play area. It's doubly crazy because when I saw my friend's Destiny dice in person, the first thing i noticed was how huge they are.

 

Considering how much FFG relies on community-driven content to help drive hype for games along, and how much video streams/recordings are increasingly becoming a major part of that, it looks like the flashy but impractical graphic design on those dice could be a bit of a misstep. Now I really appreciate the simple, clear (and normal-sized) dice in Imperial Assault and X-Wing.



#58
Jarratt

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Even the IA and X-Wing dice are pretty hard to see on streams unless you have a second dedicated close up the camera. The best set up I have seen is actually using a blue or green rolling mat and then screening it out with a chromakey so it looks like the x-Wong dice are rolling on the table but the are really big and clear.

The problem with Destiny is that the dice are the game. You can't have them sitting off to the side.
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#59
colsanders

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Yeah, and some of those forums seem a bit toxic.  Things on cardgamedb are more civilized.

Here it isn't clumsy or random like Facebook, a more elegant forum, from a more civilized age.

Sorry couldn't resist.
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#60
colsanders

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On the topic at hand, I am still pro SWLCG.

If you had a gun to my head and made me choose this game or Destiny, I'm taking this game all day. There are some cool things Destiny has to offer, already being open to all the canon is number one. Number two, Destiny has cards called Its A Trap! and Never Tell Me The Odds, two sets in. How do we not have those cards yet?! Those are my favorite lines!

To me though the downsides of Destiny are the dice aspect and the collectible aspect. After 20+ years of gaming, I am totally over going all in on collectible games. Somebody mentioned that it was cheaper to get into Destiny than the LCG right now, I am not really buying that. If you want two FULL PLAYSETS, you can get them for the low low price of 300 PER SET from Team Covenant. Now I'm not the best at math, but that means by expansion set two your already down 1200 bucks for everything which I'm pretty sure is more than all of the LCG cards.

However, I do like some of Destiny's mechanics and will play casually in drafts. I will NEVER play it competitively like I do the LCG.

I also have faith that those Rogue One and Force Awakens cards will find their way into our game. Man it's been awhile since I posted something more than like two lines. Incoherent rant over.
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