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How do you protect you characters?


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13 replies to this topic

#1
TheAshenOne

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Hi,

 

after some games I wonder: how do you prevent your opponent to focus only on one character? 

 

In a Dooku/eGrevious deck, how to you prevent your opponent to start delivering tons of damage to Grevious and send him immediately ko?

 

Dice manipulation card (like Use the force) o dice removal (like isolation)?

 

I tried some decks with the Rebel Trooper and find very useful the Guardian ability to handle incoming damage but I'm very reluctant to play decks with Bala-tik: I'd like to build a eGrevious / eBala-tik deck but it seems to me too easy to focus on Bala and then on Grevious...

 

Maybe this is a stupid question for you but I had few games under my belt  :P

 



#2
Tacullu64

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Control your opponents dice like you said, shields, healing and damage transfer for heros. Focus down and eliminate characters faster than your opponent. If you can remove a character before he uses dice that turn you saved yourself from potential damage.

#3
Asklepios

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Bear in mind that dice manipulation is a LOT worse than dice removal, as both Focus and discard-based rerolls can undo dice manipulation, while dice removal is irreversible (though there are some ways to roll dice in again, notably Leadership). Likewise, shields and healing tend to be inherently inefficient, though repeatable effects for those can give some advantage in a game of attrition.

 

Ultimately, I'd put your faith in concentrating your attacks on the opponent's highest damage dealer, and removing the most troublesome dice with card effects. Anything beyond that is a finesse strategy, and requires more thought and care.


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#4
Tacullu64

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For sure removing dice is superior to changing the face showing in regards to controlling your opponents dice.

Healing and shielding are more effective in Destiny than most other games.

At its core, if you strip away all flavor and theme, Destiny is an action economy/tempo game. A single well timed shield can get a character an extra activation or cause your opponent to have to spend an extra damage die to finish them off. In a dice game that extra activation can win you the game or net you nothing. However, the importance of the opportunity an extra activation grants is undeniable. Even if your dice crapped out on you, you're still forcing your opponent to spend extra action(s) and/or resources to deal with a character he planned on defeating last turn. If he still defeated the character but had to resolve an extra damage die that's to your advantage too as it spares another character that damage.

Aggro is not only viable, but highly successful in Destiny. Using a deck like eJango/eVeers to focus fire down your opponents is very effective. However, at 10 health Jango frequently falls on the second turn. If you play a Dug In on him he generally makes it to turn 3 granting him another activation, which can be devastating given the damage potential of the deck.

The shielding of characters is a very important aspect of Destiny, even for aggro decks.
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#5
Asklepios

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Absolutely, I don't think shielding is without purpose, but its definitely a finesse thing, much like the difference between a 10 and 11 HP character is a finesse thing. As Tacullu is saying, its largely about how many times you get to use a character's dice before they die, and a single shield could make a difference of a big chunk of damage being dealt or not.

 

The complexity comes in because of the times when shielding DOESN'T make a difference to that number. If 8 damage is incoming next turn, and you are on 3HP left, 2-3 shields makes not much ground, save in terms of the survivability of remaining characters, but in that circumstance you're almost always better off pushing your own kills rather than worrying about the next character along.

 

So basically shields and healing are inefficient, but they're an important part of brinksmanship. Really, "kill them first" and "take out their dice" are the two strategies that are never redundant. All other approaches have their role, but need to be taken in context of the effects that pursuing them have on the two primary goals.


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#6
Tacullu64

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I think Asklepios and I are more or less on the same page here. I've played over 150 games of Destiny, which sounds like a lot. It's not, at least for Destiny anyways. I've barely scratched the surface of learning how to be the best player I can be. I say this to give perspective to what I'm about to say and encourage it to be taken with a grain of salt.

So far I've found 3 phases of behavior I've entered regarding how I play the game. I started the game a bit too timid about discarding cards to reroll dice in my pool. After all, cards are an important resource and I wouldn't have put the card in my deck if it wasn't good, right. It really didn't take long to realize my mistake and make an about face. At this point I start aggressively discarding cards, often times to try to generate damage that really is unlikely to appear on the dice. The stage I'm currently in is more about maximizing the turn. I'm trying to learn to make the most out of the cards I draw and what the dice roll. I'm sure right about now your thinking, thank you captain obvious for that tidbit of wisdom and what does that have to do with shielding characters or protecting them in other ways.

In Destiny each player has a fair amount of information on what their opponent is capable of once his dice are in the pool and you know what's in your hand and in your dice pool. Barring hidden damage in your opponents hand it's just a matter of counting damage and noting its type to figure out if an opponent can defeat one of your characters and how many actions it will take him. This in turn gives you a lot of information on the viability of saving your character with shields or dice control effects. You should also be able to figure out if you can deal enough damage to defeat your opponents character thus removing the dice before they can deal damage to your character. Sometimes your opponent will have enough damage showing so that you need to decide on whether to act to save a character before your opponent has rolled all their dice into their pool.

A long time ago Mike Flores wrote an article for MtG titled Who's the Beatdown. It was a great article back then and I think worth reading again as every turn of Destiny you have assess whether you should be in the role of beatdown or control. We build our decks with a certain purpose in mind, but the dice don't always give you what you want/need to further your decks strategy. Some turns Jango/veers won't roll the damage they're accustomed to getting and will actually have to take the control role as best they can.

tl:dr: Destiny is a dice game and you won't always get what you want. I think those that become great at the game will learn how to make the most out of what the dice give them even if it means going defensive for a turn with an offensive oriented deck. When to extend your turn discarding for rerolls or resolve what the dice gave you and claim the battlefield is a critical decision point in Destiny. One of many important decisions you will make.

#7
Asklepios

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I think Asklepios and I are more or less on the same page here. I've played over 150 games of Destiny, which sounds like a lot. It's not, at least for Destiny anyways. I've barely scratched the surface of learning how to be the best player I can be. I say this to give perspective to what I'm about to say and encourage it to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

 

Well, you've played a lot more games than me. I'm about 10 games in, just mouthing off purely from theorycrafting at present, though I believe I've historically always been okay at that. :)

 

Agree on the article you mention being core reading for serious cardgamers, btw. Here it is for those of you who weren't gaming last century...

 

http://www.starcityg...e_Beatdown.html


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#8
Tacullu64

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Theorycrafting is fun. Playing is more fun.

There are some games that if you played 150 times you'd be a grizzled veteran. Even though there is only one set released in Destiny, after 150 games I feel I've barely scratched the surface of what's possible. That is one of its greatest strengths to me.

#9
retoxidi

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Tacullu, do you also play the game with Tabletop Simulator? For me it's too damn hard to get games in with my lovely cardboard cards, and I have been thinking about going down the Simulator route. Man I wish OCTGN had it though, because I'm familiar with it's interface. People say OCTGN will not have it because it doesn't support dice?

Ps. The beatdown article was a good read, thanks!

#10
Asklepios

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My only worry is that I think FFG might be somewhat down on tabletop simulator, though they were generally okay with octgn it seems.

 

Totally agree though - if this game was on octgn I'd have hundreds of games in by now. As it is I'm limited to playing a handful of games live each week.



#11
Tacullu64

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Tacullu, do you also play the game with Tabletop Simulator? For me it's too damn hard to get games in with my lovely cardboard cards, and I have been thinking about going down the Simulator route. Man I wish OCTGN had it though, because I'm familiar with it's interface. People say OCTGN will not have it because it doesn't support dice?
Ps. The beatdown article was a good read, thanks!


Nope. All my games are with opponents in the same room with me. The game plays really quick, especially when you test against eJango/eVeers all the time. One of the guys prefers Aggro, so he's happy to be the test deck. Rest of us are more control oriented.

Personally, I don't think eJ/eV is the best deck out there, but it's good, easy to build, and easy to play, so if you can't beat it, you won't advance in competitive play. I find it fun to play against too.

Your welcome for the article recommendation. Asklepios deserves the thanks for linking it and Mike Flores for writing it in the first place. It was insightful back then and still relevant today.

#12
Asklepios

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Hmm, I've not had the pleasure of facing eJango/eVeers yet, but I see why that would be  scary deck.

 

Theory-wise, I'm thinking look to activate your main damage dealer before an upgrade can be played on Jango, to force that player to decide between the free activate and tooling up efficiently. Then pile as much damage as possible on Veers, as fast as possible, to shut down the Leadership combo and to thin the incoming ranged damage as fast as possible. As always, dice removal should help control pace as well.

 

That sound about right? I'm just running from logic here, would appreciate your experiences being reported.



#13
TheAshenOne

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Here we have mine Jango / Veers and a friend of mine plays Jango / 2 x Trooper. I played against him with my Luke / Ackbar (I love this deck) and I first shield my character (Jedi's robe) and I activate my major damage dealer (Luke) before he can equip too many guns. This is one of the reasons I open this very useful imho thread. With Deflect I try to reject all the dice he decided not to use because he had still the tropper to activate. I use Jango/Veers to do the demos because is very simple and straightforward deck and I "converted" at the moment about 8 player to destiny thanks to this villain! :D

 

BTW, thanks to all for your feedback!



#14
Tacullu64

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A speedy first turn activation before Jango equips a gun or something is fairly common, it doesn't have to be your best damage dealer though, at this point you're just looking for options so keep an open mind. No matter what you do Jango will most likely get his free activation.

I've not seen leadership used in the deck and truth be told Veer's dice are arguably better than Jango's so it's good to get them in the pool. Jango has the oddball side with his 1 melee. About the only card in the deck that works with it is Promotion and that has to go on Veers.

The power of the deck comes from the near perfect synergy of he 2 characters and the cards that go in it and Jango's ability. Jango's ability means in almost every turn he gets to roll in and resolve dice before you can control them. You can only survive so many turns of this before your chance of victory becomes almost nil. Jango must be defeated, and as quickly as possible. Fortunately he only has 10 life, but this is where a timely Dug In on Jango can extend his life and give him another activation. The Best Defense can also be used to keep Jango going and gain extra activations.

Because of my play style preferences I actually prefer playing eJango/2x trooper. It's slower, but seems to have more staying power.

Lukebar is one of the decks you build around shielding and life gain. Between shields and Field Medic Luke can easily have 20 plus health in a game. Keep Luke alive, deal a steady stream of moderate damage, then when the opportunity presents itself strike with a big damage spike.

Last week my opponent chose to go after Ackbar first one game. He quickly dealt 8 damage to him. I was able to play Dug In on him turn 2 putting him out of reach for that turn. Turn 3 I play Field Medic on Ackbar and control some dice to keep him alive. Turn 4 I get some shields from Luke's Lightsaber and use Willpower to transfer a damage from him to Jango. All the while Luke is dealing a little bit of damage to Jango each turn until I finish him off turn 4. Turn 5 there is nothing I can do to stop Veers from defeating Ackbar, but it's only a moral victory because a wounded Veers is facing a full health nicely equipped Luke in a contest with only one obvious outcome.

Because my opponent thought he could get an easy kill on Ackbar he went all in on him in an attempt to get a quick removal. Because I was able to extend Ackbar's life and force him to expend way more time, resources, and effort than he initially thought he would need, all he got was frustration and a crushing defeat. Previously when he was playing eGrievous/Dooku, my same opponent got an early Luke kill while losing Grievous the same turn leaving Dooku to wipe the floor with Ackbar. In a hilarious twist of fate Ackbar prevailed. Now he likes to joke that Ackbar is his doom.
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