Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

How random is this game?


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1
MightyToenail

MightyToenail

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1164 posts
To those who have been playing for awhile, what is the randomness level like in the game? Because the decision to have board state and victory condition be interconnected is a bold one, and one that if it was any other designer I would immediately lambast. But it seems to me that some lucky rolls turn one could decimate your opponent pretty bad, and there looks to be a lot of snowballing (again, all speculation, prove me wrong plz). I really dislike CCG format, but a good game is a good game, no matter the format, so I might pick up a starter and a few packs at some point, but only if I can be sure that the randomness is mitigated somehow. And please be honest. I don't care if that means not being loyal to your game. Just put it plainly. I'm totally fine if you say "yeah there is a lot of luck involved, but that's what makes it so great! Even playing field!".

Thanks in advance.
  • MightyToenail likes this

#2
OutOfFactionWarlord

OutOfFactionWarlord

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 216 posts

A lucky initial roll could end up in a quick match, but due to the alternating actions your opponent will usually have some way to mitigate issues with extremely lucky rolls after the initial action.  This of course isn't always the case, and with card games there is going to be variance (luck)... throw in dice as well and you have variance in two dimensions.  For me I think it actually plays pretty well and quickly if you know what you're doing.  You can easily get a best of 3 in the amount of time a single game of something else would likely take.

 

But I also strongly dislike the CCG format which will likely kill the game.  I wish it was an LCG so badly, because I think the game mechanics and theme / feel is spot on.

 

Soapbox section:

 

CCG format is too expensive and limits their pool of possible players, most of which can't afford to play Magic and Destiny (and will obviously stick with Magic).  LCG players are highly unlikely to start to also play a CCG (it's been incredibly difficult to convince people to start an LCG, and the cost is an order of magnitude lower than a CCG).

 

I'm hoping the game gets rebooted as an LCG immediately, or every set from now on goes with that format.


  • doenerone, Crikrunner, MightyToenail and 2 others like this

#3
Ironswimsuit

Ironswimsuit

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1081 posts

To those who have been playing for awhile, what is the randomness level like in the game? Because the decision to have board state and victory condition be interconnected is a bold one, and one that if it was any other designer I would immediately lambast. But it seems to me that some lucky rolls turn one could decimate your opponent pretty bad, and there looks to be a lot of snowballing (again, all speculation, prove me wrong plz). I really dislike CCG format, but a good game is a good game, no matter the format, so I might pick up a starter and a few packs at some point, but only if I can be sure that the randomness is mitigated somehow. And please be honest. I don't care if that means not being loyal to your game. Just put it plainly. I'm totally fine if you say "yeah there is a lot of luck involved, but that's what makes it so great! Even playing field!".

Thanks in advance.

 

Stop liking your own posts. I don't want to subtract 1,000+ likes every time I wonder how appreciated you are by the community. :) On topic,  there are ways to mitigate the random elements of the game on both sides of the table (mostly your own). The opportunity to discard for re-rolls, cards which let you change die results, and the focus face which lets you resolve it to change another die face are both good ways to push through your strategy. The 30 card deck and the fact you draw back up to 5 at the end of each turn (you may also discard additional crap from your hand before drawing) means you're never really THAT far away from the cards you want. If you played SWLCG, the drawing will feel familiar. There's also the possibility of rerolling or removing an opponent's dice via card effects. Still, dice can go cold. Fortunately, the games are fast if they do.

 

I also strongly dislike the CCG format which will likely kill the game.  I wish it was an LCG so badly, because I think the game mechanics and theme / feel is spot on.

 

Soapbox section:

 

CCG format is too expensive and limits their pool of possible players, most of which can't afford to play Magic and Destiny (and will obviously stick with Magic).  LCG players are highly unlikely to start to also play a CCG (it's been incredibly difficult to convince people to start an LCG, and the cost is an order of magnitude lower than a CCG).

 

I'm hoping the game gets rebooted as an LCG immediately, or every set from now on goes with that format.

 

It won't be rebooted as an LCG. Hope for something else, like cold fusion, or 2 for 1 taco prices.  The price of a second game may be a barrier for  MtG players, but it's really more about the lack of pack gambling, card chasing, or worthy prize support. In collectible games, prizes can be extra packs or boxes. Not really the case in LCGs, but you can get an alt art version of something no one plays, if you like (see AGoT Q1 '17 kit)


  • Darksbane and MightyToenail like this

#4
MightyToenail

MightyToenail

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 1164 posts
Oops, didn't even realize that I liked my post there. My subconscious appears to be very overly self-confident. Is there a mechanic to reroll dice like in Ashes where you discard off the top of the deck to change dice facing? Interesting the draw back to five rule, I really love that. And yeah, no LCG reboot coming any time soon. Netrunner (re-)rebooted as a TCG or an Lovecraft TCG is infinitely more likely.

#5
Ironswimsuit

Ironswimsuit

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1081 posts

You always like your own posts!!!  :lol:  The re-rolls come from some card effects, but primarily from discarding a card from hand to re-roll any or all available dice. Some dice have the focus result which lets you spend them to change the facing.


  • MightyToenail likes this

#6
Hakkor

Hakkor

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 439 posts

I really like the card draw mechaninc, it's not very random if you make a consistent deck and don't rely on a single card. That why I'm very dissapointed on the randomness of dice, as it messes with consistency of the deck.

 

Of course, you can waste cards to reroll, you have focus sides, most sides are useful (not always) and so on, but I have won many games by sheer luck rather than skill, specially when I faced an opponent that knew what he was doing. More over, I have seen totally new players (less than 5 games) get to the final or top 4 without much difficulty. That's something that NEVER happened in Conquest, for example.

 

Me reasoning for the heavy randomness of the game relies on the fact that dice sides are not balanced. They show different action and different values, and not all of them are useful each time you roll your dice. Plus, blank sides. Luck with dice determines how many cards you are forced to waste to HOPE for a good roll, how many dice you need the spend on focus to get those sides that kept not showing, how many resources your opponent needs to divert from developing to control your dice. The mere difference from rolling ranged 1 to ranged 2 consistently when the odds are even determines the whole game.

 

When you are lucky, you use your focus sides to counter your opponent's events. When unlucky, your opponent uses his cards to counter those dice you where forced to use focus on. When lucky, you get enough damage to finish off a wounded character. When unlucky, you spend a ton of actions and your whole hand in rerolls to watch him get away with a few hp left.

Some games have ended in a simple "the first one who rolls X damage sides first wins". You repetedly need to decide between a crappy roll and wasting your entire hand for a 1/6 or 1/3 chance for the side you need.

 

And I find all of that frustrating in a tournament or competitive play. Even a best out of 3 is needed in any final match to balance it. If a player keeps on rolling 2 damage, even after forcing him rerolls, and the other one is spending an average of 2 cards per round because blank sides love him, there's no way someone could think "oh, this game is being fantastic, my strategy is totally working" or "I'm losing, I need to identify when I made a missplay".

 

The game idea is finely designed, and I like it, but it's completely random. And you know it. (Yes, even you)


  • MightyToenail likes this

#7
Tacullu64

Tacullu64

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 57 posts
At first the game can appear to be very luck based. As you grow in experience so will your belief that you control the outcome of your games. The fact of the matter is that your decisions will have more impact on most games than the dice. To be successful you have to learn when to accept what the dice presented you with and how to make the most of it and when to try to force the situation with rerolls.

A lucky first turn does not necessarily spell doom for the other player. I once lost Rey (10 health) on turn 1 to eVader/Raider and still won the game with my 2 remaining Padawans. This is rare but so is losing Rey on the first turn.
  • Hakkor and MightyToenail like this

#8
Keigi

Keigi

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts

The good decks/players find ways to remove the randomness.  Randomness with cards and dice.  

 

With cards, good players know what five cards they want with their deck at the start of the game and take full advantage of the mulligan rule to obtain these cards.  You can also discard your entire hand at the end of turn and draw back up to hand size; so if you are hunting for a particular card the odds of reaching it increase.  There is also deck building to ensure you have options all the time with cards.

 

With dice,  the aim is consistency.  There are characters, cards, actions, and die sides that remove die inconsistency.  There are also decks that allow you to avoid opponent die mitigation.  Sure you can have blowout "god rolls", but those decks usually don't have consistency.  They need ways to protect their dice, or be able to resolve their dice before an opponent takes action; see elite Jango/Veers.

 

After losing with a well-built deck, never feel like "the rolls just didn't go my way."  Feel more, "made some poor choices." 

 

-Keigi


  • BayushiSezaru likes this

#9
Hakkor

Hakkor

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 439 posts

I completely agree about the cards, yet, I still feel luck is essental in dice, Keigi. I have only lost 1 game with Jango/Veers from aproximatedly 15 games (including a tournament, where I went 5-0 without much difficulty), and I left a lonely Vader with 1 hp left. And I'm sure that wasn't entirely thanks to my skill. In my opinion, Jango should not be used as an example, as he is the only character that lets you roll his dice before the opponent by himself and with no need of shennanigans and has nothing to do with smart card play or deckbuilding. Just pop weapons on him and shoot every round.

 

The deck is consistent because every dice has a 50% chance of damage or higher, and most of the control cards have cost 0, making them playable even without resources. The deck just needs to roll roll roll, and eventually discard a card for a particularly nefastous outcome.

 

But that's it. Other decks roll much more random dice (5-6 different sides), and heavily rely on focus or special dice to get their strategy going. That's naturally inconsistent. You just need to pin the key dice and forget about the rest of the "enabler" sides. Lukebar was forced to reroll his good dice in round 1, yet managed to kill Veers that same turn. Next game, he hardly inflicted 4 wounds during the first 2-3 rounds. Only a couple of events were used to achieve the situation. The differnece? Game 1 Luke kept rolling damage 2-3, even after my countermeasures. Game 2, he kept rolling blank sides, so I only needed to wait for him to waste his focus on the double focus to set up the play and then force a reroll or remove a die. He wasn't able to reroll well even after discarding some cards from hand.

 

Experience is a major degree, but when facing an opponent of your same skill, there's always that "random" feeling.



#10
Hakkor

Hakkor

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 439 posts

At first the game can appear to be very luck based. As you grow in experience so will your belief that you control the outcome of your games. The fact of the matter is that your decisions will have more impact on most games than the dice. To be successful you have to learn when to accept what the dice presented you with and how to make the most of it and when to try to force the situation with rerolls.

 

Precisely. And that's what I have been unable to transmit correctly until now. I enjoy the game but dislike having to "do the most out of what dice present me". I don't want to rely on dice, I want to do "this" and "that", maybe that's why my decks are always full of events (16+). I still live haunted by Conquest :) Sorry for the double post!



#11
pantsyg

pantsyg

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2690 posts

The good decks/players find ways to remove the randomness.  Randomness with cards and dice.  

 

With cards, good players know what five cards they want with their deck at the start of the game and take full advantage of the mulligan rule to obtain these cards.  You can also discard your entire hand at the end of turn and draw back up to hand size; so if you are hunting for a particular card the odds of reaching it increase.  There is also deck building to ensure you have options all the time with cards.

 

With dice,  the aim is consistency.  There are characters, cards, actions, and die sides that remove die inconsistency.  There are also decks that allow you to avoid opponent die mitigation.  Sure you can have blowout "god rolls", but those decks usually don't have consistency.  They need ways to protect their dice, or be able to resolve their dice before an opponent takes action; see elite Jango/Veers.

 

After losing with a well-built deck, never feel like "the rolls just didn't go my way."  Feel more, "made some poor choices." 

 

-Keigi

 

This logic only goes so far, even in games where the variance is only in draws. Losing isn't always a result of a player's poor play. Sometimes you make all the right decisions, but the opponent had the answers at the right time, or got a stronger opening draw, or you missed your key draws, or (for Destiny) you just don't see the dice your deck wants or got killed by the nuts roll. 

 

In Destiny you'll more consistently see most of your cards, but some cards need to be drawn at the right time to be good, same as in any game. Sometimes that just doesn't come together. 

 

This isn't to say that better players won't, in the long run, have better winrates than worse players, or that losing can be blamed solely on bad dice. I will say that Destiny has a higher degree of variance than other card games I've played, so a hot streak of dice on a not-terrible deck could see you into the top of a small tournament. Variance is higher here than in X-Wing, the other dice game I play that also has dice manipulation elements. That's because there's fewer ways to absolutely "fix" dice to the result you want, and more results on each die that you may not want at a given time, not just "hit" or "miss." The current Destiny competitive structure doesn't have players playing enough games at an event to even out the effects of variance; this is why I'm mainly planning to play casually, and small shop events. 

 

All that said, there are certain strategies that don't need much luck to function, and as always, having more dice with more of your desired side greatly reduces variability. Once/if you get into the late game with lots of upgrades (and therefore dice) and potential focus, die removal gets weaker and you see more consistency. Building redundancy into your dice is crucial; if you're building around Poe's Special, for example, it's a poor call to not run 2 of his dice, and probably Cunning and/or Datapad for more chances at the effect you built around. 

 

TLDR Destiny has more variance than other card games I've played owing to the dice. You can mitigate it enough to keep me interested, but you can't build or play it out of the game entirely with smart calls in play or deckbuilding. 


  • Hakkor likes this

#12
pantsyg

pantsyg

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2690 posts

Precisely. And that's what I have been unable to transmit correctly until now. I enjoy the game but dislike having to "do the most out of what dice present me". I don't want to rely on dice, I want to do "this" and "that", maybe that's why my decks are always full of events (16+). I still live haunted by Conquest :) Sorry for the double post!

 

The longer I play, the more I've been trimming my decks to lower upgrade counts and more events. You can only field so many upgrades in a game, and I'd rather see hands of 1-2 impact upgrades and good events than 4 upgrades and one event every turn. 


  • Hakkor likes this

#13
Tacullu64

Tacullu64

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 57 posts

Precisely. And that's what I have been unable to transmit correctly until now. I enjoy the game but dislike having to "do the most out of what dice present me". I don't want to rely on dice, I want to do "this" and "that", maybe that's why my decks are always full of events (16+). I still live haunted by Conquest :) Sorry for the double post!

What I like best about the game is the decisions that go into making the most out of the cards I drew and the dice I rolled. Each turn is a little puzzle you need to figure out to maximize your results. I tend to run heavy on events too, but thats because I favor midrange control and need to be able to control dice from my hand.

Jango/Veers is a good deck, but it benefits from the advantages aggro builds generally have in a new game with a underdeveloped meta. I've played a lot of games with it and even more against it, at least 75. I don't know what the actual percentage is, but I definitely have a winning record against it.

It is going to out roll a lot of decks. That is why you need to figure out your path to victory before the first die is rolled. I'm not advocating a rigid step by step plan because that would be ridiculous in a dice rolling card drawing game. However, suppose I'm playing eHan/eRey against it. I want to turn it into a Han versus Veers match. If I can do that I like my chances. So, I need to remove Jango the same turn I lose Rey. J/V frequently kills on turn 2 and I frequently kill on turn 3. Therefore I have to find away to get a 3rd useful activation out of Rey or speed up my ability to remove Jango. The way I've built my deck I'm more likely to extend Rey's life. And on it goes.

Bottom line is there are so many different ways a game can go depending on the choices you make in the way you build your deck to the way you approach the matchup to the way the dice roll during the game. Very rarely does is it come down to a case of a player only having bad options.
  • BayushiSezaru likes this

#14
retoxidi

retoxidi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 366 posts
Here's my take on the subject. I feel like luck is not too big of a factor in this game and the experienced players will have the upper hand. It evens out in the long run - sometimes you roll a bit better and sometimes not that great. Of course it sucks if the next roll is the most important roll of the match and you fail utterly and it costs you the tournament. But maybe in the next tourney your dice revenge themselves!

Howerever there is a huge difference in play experience between Destiny and Conquest. In Destiny when you exhaust your dual-lightsaber-wielding-badass, you count the odds prior to the attack and see what happens. That badass might have just attacked for 0dmg. Whereas a motherf* Heldrake hits for 8 each and every time! For me there's a much more immediate feel to the game when I choose to attack and I know the outcome straight ahead. It put's me in the driver's seat. If I want to attack with my aforementioned jedi-badass, and the dice decided that all I needed was resources this turn, it breaks the immersion big time.

Conclusion: luck is not too big of a factor and the more experienced players will have the upper hand. But the feel to the game is (for me) like being a manager in a race car club rather than being the driver. Luckily the card play is indeed there too and with that I find Destiny a fine game, but nowhere near as good as Conquest.
  • Hakkor and Kaloo like this

#15
Asklepios

Asklepios

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 5433 posts

Conclusion: luck is not too big of a factor and the more experienced players will have the upper hand. But the feel to the game is (for me) like being a manager in a race car club rather than being the driver. Luckily the card play is indeed there too and with that I find Destiny a fine game, but nowhere near as good as Conquest.

 

Ain't that the truth, brother. For me it's a great filler between Conquest and Lo5R, but I'm under no illusions that Destiny will be my main game in the same way that Conquest has been for the past few

years.

 

It's the distribution model that is the problem: luck is a factor, because you have to luck into 2x copies of the character you want to play.

 

1 and a bit booster boxes in, and so far I can field elite versions of Rey, Ren and Padme, and that's it. With borrowing across two friends, I can do a few other characters, but there is no combination I can build that has 4 dice of the same damage type, which in my mind is the way to go right now. That's the luck factor, right there, and I refuse to spend my way past it.

 

It's crazy, as FFG are the flagship company for the LCG model. Such a shame that they have to act like WOTC for this game.


  • Crikrunner, retoxidi and Kaloo like this

#16
Hakkor

Hakkor

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 439 posts

Bottom line is there are so many different ways a game can go depending on the choices you make in the way you build your deck to the way you approach the matchup to the way the dice roll during the game. Very rarely does is it come down to a case of a player only having bad options.

 True. Deckbuilding, game approach and card timing are clear player decisions, which can be better or worse. Dice rolling is not, which is the last layer of the game, the ones that comes after all the player decisions. And, since this last layer is not a player choice, it's random. So, getting the rolls you need to achieve you approach, play the cards you made the deck with and get the result to play around your opponent are decided by dice. And that takes me to...

 

Conclusion: luck is not too big of a factor and the more experienced players will have the upper hand. But the feel to the game is (for me) like being a manager in a race car club rather than being the driver.

Exactly. The fact that dice will decide if all your choices succeed or not, requierring you to reroll and take further risks, make me feel I'm playing a game closer to a wargame than a card game.


  • Tacullu64 likes this

#17
ZenClix

ZenClix

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 134 posts

I agree with most of what was been said here relative to game play (I'm going to pass on comments on distribution).  In the long run, more skilled pilots and deckbuilders are going to win more often.  Certainly in the short run variance and "god" rolls will determine outcomes, but that may turn out to be a boon for the game's health rather than a bane.  I think this lowers the (non-economic) barrier to entry for new players.

 

For example, if I step into MtG and try the tournament scene, I will win rarely and sporadically. If I step into Netrunner the top competitors are going to crush me, 98 times out of 100.  At best, I am going to have long, steep learning curves for these games and others like them.  With Destiny, the more experienced players will still be more successful overall, but the newbie can still win or be competitive at any given time.  I think that will help draw and keep new players going forward, to at lest some extent.  Thanks!



#18
Tacullu64

Tacullu64

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 57 posts

True. Deckbuilding, game approach and card timing are clear player decisions, which can be better or worse. Dice rolling is not, which is the last layer of the game, the ones that comes after all the player decisions. And, since this last layer is not a player choice, it's random. So, getting the rolls you need to achieve you approach, play the cards you made the deck with and get the result to play around your opponent are decided by dice. And that takes me to...


Exactly. The fact that dice will decide if all your choices succeed or not, requierring you to reroll and take further risks, make me feel I'm playing a game closer to a wargame than a card game.

You don't get to chose your rolls, but you do get to make choices about when to do what with what you rolled. That was a mouthful.

The obvious choice is discard for a reroll. First you have to decide whether to do it, use the faces you were given, or possibly leave dice in your pool even though you have cards for a reroll.

Next is dice fixing. The most obvious choice here is the focus action. However there are a limited amount of cards that allow you to fix your dice too, such as Force Strike and Use the Force.

While I agree you can't control the die faces that come up when you roll the dice, in my mind that is the start of the tactical part of the game not the end of it. The choices that I and my opponent make after the dice are in the pool will more often than not, make the difference on who had the best round and ultimately who wins the game. If I play against Jango/Veers with most any other deck and depend on the rolls of the dice to carry me to victory, I will be disappointed in the outcome more often than not.

I think you and I are in perfect harmony about the mechanics of the game. It seems we only differ on how we perceive the workings of said mechanics. For you the randomness of the dice causes the act of fixing imperfect rolls which is a more of a task or job you wish you didn't have to do to play the game properly, while I perceive the randomness of the rolls as the beginning of my struggle for dominance with my opponent in that round. I'm not trying to say there is a right or wrong way to view the game only that our perceptions of what is happening influence how we feel about it.
  • Darksbane, yodaman, Hakkor and 1 other like this

#19
yodaman

yodaman

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2743 posts

I admit I haven't played nearly as many different games as others.  I used to play the Decipher Star Wars game and I've played the Star Wars LCG pretty much since it came out.  One thing though that I think is worth noting in regards to randomess is that the inherent randomness you have from the dice rolls is somewhat offset by the fact decks only consist of 30 cards and Destiny has a very generous mulligan rule.  While you are certainly at the mercy of the dice and it is possible for you to get a crap roll or your opponent to get a god roll, you are much more likely to see cards you may want/need to mitigate the dice randomness on both sides because of the smaller deck size.  



#20
chiller087

chiller087

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 836 posts
There is a ton of randomness in this game as far as the dice are concerned. Less so with the card deck, as there's only 30 cards max.

The designers' answer to this double whammy of randomness was to give you a ton of chances to mitigate it. No matter how random something is, given enough chances you'll land it. So being able to discard any or all cards in your opening hand, as well as however many you wish at the end of each turn, helps a lot with any randomness in your deck. Being able to discard any card to reroll any amount of dice has the double effect of helping you burn through unwanted cards AND mitigate bad rolls.

So there's tons of randomness to the this game, and there are boatloads of ways to mitigate it. I swear on me future grave Destiny ends up feeling far less random than your standard 50 card deck CCG game because of all these options.