Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Sautekh Complex reaction to unit no longer in play

Sautekh Complex

Best Answer ktom , 31 March 2017 - 11:19 PM

tdnordine's instinct is correct in terms of addressing this question. The faction of the deployed unit is determined when the triggering condition (i.e., deploying the unit) happens. Since triggering conditions do not change while reactions to them are being triggered, it doesn't matter what happens to the unit you deployed before triggering the Complex. The faction it had when you deployed it will be the basis of the comparison for the Complex's play restriction.

 

The better analogy to this is Ragnar Blackmane. We know that if Ragnar is committed to Planet #1 and Starbane is committed to Planet #2, Ragnar cannot trigger his Reaction - even if Starbane first uses Foresight to commit to Planet #1 beforehand in the reaction window. The triggering condition (no enemy warlord at Planet #1 when Ragnar committed) remains unchanged, even though the current game state doesn't match the triggering condition. Same thing in this situation. The triggering condition (the Necrons player deployed, for instance, a Tau unit) remains unchanged, even though the current game state doesn't match the triggering condition (because the deployed Tau unit has left play).

 

The Power Fist ruling linked to in the OP doesn't apply to this situation for two reasons. First, in that ruling, it is the comparison set (i.e., the set that is being searched for a match) that is empty, not the "comparator" set (i.e., the thing that is setting the criteria that will be searched for). Second, Power Fist is looking to see that "each other" member of the set (units you control at the planet) has a given characteristic ("exhausted"). If you have no other units at the planet, you can't say that they are exhausted or ready - i.e., if you have no other units at the planet, it is just as "true" that they are all ready as it is that they are all exhausted. But the Complex is looking to see that "no other" member of the set (units you control) have a given characteristic. If you have no other units in play (although you will since you will always at least have your warlord), you can still definitively say that nothing matches the deployed unit.

- So Intolerance's instinct that the somewhat related question doesn't answer his question was spot on. There are enough differences that the reasoning for the one question cannot be applied to the other.

Go to the full post »


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1
Intolerance

Intolerance

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 207 posts

Sautekh Complex

Reaction: After you deploy a unit from a non-[Necron] faction, if you control no other units from that faction, gain 1[Resource] or draw 1 card.

 

 

Suppose you have no non-[Necron] units in play and deploy a unit with a faction. If that unit is removed from play prior to you being able to trigger Sautekh Complex (such as by Dissection Chamber or Hunting Acanthrites), will you still be able to successfully resolve the effect? Specifically, does an 'other' comparison still resolve to true if the thing being compared to does not exist.

 

There's a somewhat related question here (http://www.cardgamed...-a-second-unit/) but I'm not sure if it answers the question since it's comparing against an empty set. The 'best answer' does say that 'other' must have things to compare to.



#2
tdnordine

tdnordine

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 364 posts

The reaction window to deploying the unit would still be open, so yes, you could trigger the reaction on Sautekh Complex even if some other reaction to that action removed the unit from play first.



#3
Intolerance

Intolerance

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 207 posts

I get that the reaction window is still open, but when you trigger the reaction and resolve the if condition 'control no other units from that faction', there is no original unit to compare as the 'other' of so the comparison cannot be made. If the comparison cannot be made, then it cannot be true or false and you cannot take a resource or draw a card.



#4
steinerp

steinerp

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 833 posts

That power fist ruling is my least favorite ruling of all time.  But this is a potential way to get out of the combo potential.  I've removed the "solved" marking and will think on it unless ktom answers first. 



#5
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts
✓  Best Answer

tdnordine's instinct is correct in terms of addressing this question. The faction of the deployed unit is determined when the triggering condition (i.e., deploying the unit) happens. Since triggering conditions do not change while reactions to them are being triggered, it doesn't matter what happens to the unit you deployed before triggering the Complex. The faction it had when you deployed it will be the basis of the comparison for the Complex's play restriction.

 

The better analogy to this is Ragnar Blackmane. We know that if Ragnar is committed to Planet #1 and Starbane is committed to Planet #2, Ragnar cannot trigger his Reaction - even if Starbane first uses Foresight to commit to Planet #1 beforehand in the reaction window. The triggering condition (no enemy warlord at Planet #1 when Ragnar committed) remains unchanged, even though the current game state doesn't match the triggering condition. Same thing in this situation. The triggering condition (the Necrons player deployed, for instance, a Tau unit) remains unchanged, even though the current game state doesn't match the triggering condition (because the deployed Tau unit has left play).

 

The Power Fist ruling linked to in the OP doesn't apply to this situation for two reasons. First, in that ruling, it is the comparison set (i.e., the set that is being searched for a match) that is empty, not the "comparator" set (i.e., the thing that is setting the criteria that will be searched for). Second, Power Fist is looking to see that "each other" member of the set (units you control at the planet) has a given characteristic ("exhausted"). If you have no other units at the planet, you can't say that they are exhausted or ready - i.e., if you have no other units at the planet, it is just as "true" that they are all ready as it is that they are all exhausted. But the Complex is looking to see that "no other" member of the set (units you control) have a given characteristic. If you have no other units in play (although you will since you will always at least have your warlord), you can still definitively say that nothing matches the deployed unit.

- So Intolerance's instinct that the somewhat related question doesn't answer his question was spot on. There are enough differences that the reasoning for the one question cannot be applied to the other.


  • Skyknight likes this

#6
Intolerance

Intolerance

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 207 posts

Thanks for the detailed breakdown, I hadn’t realized that the properties of a unit were captured as part of the triggering condition in addition to the unit itself. Rather assumed that they were determined relative to the unit when resolving triggered abilities.

 

Logically the truthness of these two rulings seems contradictory

 

Sautekh Complex is interpreted as 

not there exists x in ‘units you control other than y’ such that, x.faction = y.faction

When the domain is empty this is true, and is not affected by the existence of y, so my original question is answered

 

The statement is however logically equivalent to  

for all x in ‘units you control other than y’, x.faction != y.faction

Which seems identical to the power fist interpretation

for all x in ‘units your control at this planet other than y’, not x.exhausted

Yet would require that statement to be true when the domain is empty

 

This argument has likely already been had in the other thread, but it is confusing that power fist has a custom function

allExhausted(units you control at this planet other than y)

That is false when the domain is empty.



#7
ktom

ktom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1463 posts

I'd say it has more to do with the fact that "ready" and "exhausted" are mutually exclusive game states.

 

Suppose you had Power Fist on a unit, along with another attachment that said something like, "While each other unit you control at this planet is ready, attached unit gets +5 HP." Which bonus does the unit get while alone at a planet, the HP or the ATK? You can't argue for one over the other (because any argument saying they are all "exhausted" could be used to say they are all "ready," too), and in order to argue for "both," all other (non-existent) units at the planet would have to be both ready and exhausted at the same time - something that units should not be able to do under the rules.