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The Annals of Castle Black

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Best Answer mplain , 05 May 2017 - 11:07 PM

Hello,
 
That is an obscure question indeed. After discussing with Nate, we’d like to rule that an event leaves your hand (or discard pile in the case of Annals) while it is being played (i.e. steps 6 & 7 of ability initiation), and is then placed in the discard pile after resolving its effects. During this time, it is neither in your hand nor your discard pile, but just "in the state of being played.”
 
Regarding your specific examples, this means that Dothraki Honor Guard would get +1 STR while the event is being played, Bastard Daughter could not discard a PTTS while it’s being played, and a card played from your discard pile using Annals of Castle Black will be removed from the game.
 
Thanks!
Danny Schaefer
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11 replies to this topic

#1
VonWibble

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"Each player may play events in his or her discard pile as if they were in his or her hand"

"After an event is placed in a discard pile, remove it from the game"

My question is

If the event is played from the discard pile, is it judged to then be placed in the discard pile? Can you place something that is already there?

I'm assuming the answer is yes because it would be placed if it were in your hand, (from a balance perspective it must be since recurring 0 cost events with no condition would get silly), just wanted to check the exact reasoning though?
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#2
mplain

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You're assuming that an event card exists in your hand while you play it. I'm not so certain about that. It could exist outside of any game zone while it's resolving.

 

If you could give Dothraki Honor Guard any faction affiliation, how much gold would To the Rose Banner! give you? Or how much STR would it gain from You Murdered Her Children? (YMHC has a dynamically changing modifier, unlike cards that use an X value, because the rules specifically say that doubling modifiers apply last after each recalculation)



#3
VonWibble

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I don't think you have answered the question? I am asking if an event is judged to be placed into the discard pile when it is played from discard.

For me, "placing" in the discard pile implies a movement to the discard pile. How can a card move to the discard pile when it is already there?

#4
mplain

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I didn't answer your question, yes -- instead, I pointed out that the base parameters of your question might be off. Did you stop drinking vodka in the mornings?

 

If event cards do not exist in hand while you're playing them, but in some limbo between game zones, then the same happens with cards that you play from the discard pile "as if they were in your hand" - they do not exist in the discard pile while you're playing them, and thus can indeed be placed (moved) into the discard pile.



#5
wordsmith

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I think Mplain is right here, there is no exact defined status for an event in case it is being played. It seems to me that it can be interpreted 3 ways. First, game defines 2 states so far: In Play, Out of Play. When checking the RR for an Event, it defines it as:
When a player plays an event card, its costs are paid, its effects are resolved (or canceled), and the card is placed in its owner's discard pile prior to opening the reaction window which follows the ability's resolution.

So then here are 3 ways how to look at an event when it is played:
1. Event is in hand - (Out of Play) - it is being played (not defined state) - Discard pile (Out of Play)
2. Event is in hand (Out of Play) - it is being played (play area - In Play) - Discard pile (Out of Play)
3. Event is in hand (or Discard pile in case of this plot - Out of Play) - it is being played (in hand - Out of Play) - Discard pile (Out of Play)

My gut feeling is for the option 3 as it would create least amount of confusion and would answer the question of how to resolve Dothraki Honor Guard question too.

Also when checking the "Marshal" entry in RR, it specifies precisely that Locations, Characters and Attachments are marshaled and are considered to have enter the play area. And it also defines that events are not marshaled but played. I think the wording is exactly like that because events doesn't suppose to enter the play unless they transform to other type (like Risen from the Sea - Event->Attachment).



#6
mplain

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Ok here's an example:

 

I play Put to the Sword at your Red Viper. You interrupt its resolution by triggering Bastard Daughter. Can she discard PTTS, the one that I'm playing?



#7
wordsmith

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I would say no, as I think in this case PttS was played and resolved -> killing Viper. So PttS would be in the discard pile by the time the interrupt of Bastard Daughter triggers. But I see where are you going with this :) unfortunately there is no detail time ruling on how to play events specifically. At least I wasn't able to find any. The entry in RR on events is however clear: its effects are resolved (or canceled), and the card is placed in its owner's discard pile prior to opening the reaction window which follows the ability's resolution.

 

But I understand the point that there is not any where exactly the event card is while it is being played. I was just making a logical analysis of current rules. It's nothing more than just my opinion - or more like how I would decide on how to play it in case I would need to. Just to clarify, I study in law school, so these kind of "ruling" challenges captivate me. :)



#8
mplain

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PTTS would be in the discard pile in time for a Reaction to trigger -- but Bastard Daughter has an Interrupt, and as such her ability resolves before PTTS resolves.



#9
mplain

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Hello Daniel!
 
I've got a rather obscure question for you:
 
Where do event cards exist while they're being played?

When a player plays an event card, its costs are paid, its effects are resolved (or canceled), and the card is placed in its owner's discard pile prior to opening the reaction window which follows the ability's resolution.
 
Costs
If any part of a cost payment is prevented, once all costs that can be paid are paid, the process of initiating the ability or marshaling/playing the card immediately ends without further resolution. (The card remains unplayed in its owner's hand.)
 
If a change in the game state between Step 1 and Step 7 creates a situation in which there are no legal targets at the time targets are chosen, or a situation in which a choice must be made but there are no valid options for that choice, the ability is considered to resolve unsuccessfully. An event that resolves unsuccessfully is placed in its owner's discard pile.
 
From the entries above I assume that up until costs are paid, an event card remains in my hand. Sometime before a reaction window to its effects opens, it is placed in the discard pile. But where does it exist in between these two steps? In my hand, in the discard pile, or in some void between game zones?
 
Specific cases where this is important:
 
1) If I were to somehow give Dothraki Honor Guard the Tyrell affiliation, and play To the Rose Banner! (the only card in my hand), how much gold would I gain? During the resolution of the event's effects, would the event card still be in my hand, thus reducing the Honor Guard's STR?
 
2) If I play Put to the Sword at a Bastard Daughter, could her interrupt ability discard PTTS from my hand?
 
3) The Annals of Castle Black's forced ability removes from the game event cards that are placed in the discard pile. But if I play an event card in my discard pile "as if it were in my hand", would it actually be placed in the discard pile after it resolves? To me, the word "place" implies movement between game zones, i.e. I'd assume that a card cannot be "placed" from the discard pile into the discard pile. If there is no change of game state, no triggering condition occurs... Am I wrong on this?
 
All three of these questions could be solved by stating that an event exists "outside of any game zone" while it is being played (say, leaves the hand after costs are paid in Step 4, and is placed in the discard pile after its effects resolve or are cancelled, after step 7). However, currently nothing in the rules states this.
 
 
Thanks Daniel!


#10
mplain

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✓  Best Answer
Hello,
 
That is an obscure question indeed. After discussing with Nate, we’d like to rule that an event leaves your hand (or discard pile in the case of Annals) while it is being played (i.e. steps 6 & 7 of ability initiation), and is then placed in the discard pile after resolving its effects. During this time, it is neither in your hand nor your discard pile, but just "in the state of being played.”
 
Regarding your specific examples, this means that Dothraki Honor Guard would get +1 STR while the event is being played, Bastard Daughter could not discard a PTTS while it’s being played, and a card played from your discard pile using Annals of Castle Black will be removed from the game.
 
Thanks!
Danny Schaefer


#11
wordsmith

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So the game has defined 3 game states now:

1. In play

2. Out of play

3. Being played (exclusive for Events, while Event is resolving)

 

... so Events can't be "In play"? They're either Out of play or Being played?

 

I wonder if there will be some other consequences of this ruling in the future...



#12
FedericoFasullo

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IMHO this state of "being played" is good. It would have been silly to be considered still in your hand and for the same reason it is not be considered in the discard pile while "being played".