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How I'd do the Prequels and Sequels in Star Wars LCG

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#61
R2Deakin

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A New Hope is Lucas canon. It directly contradicts Disney canon with entirely different versions of the characters they share. It'd be one thing if Disney tried to make their movies connect to the originals and made it seem like they were using them as a starting point, but it's pretty clear from The Force Awakens that it has no story line connection to the original films.


I found the troll.
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#62
MarioFanaticXV

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I found the troll.


Funny, when I accuse someone of trolling (such as claiming that Timothy Zahn was the father of the original Star Wars canon), I can show where and why. You just throw it out as a baseless insult.

#63
bmtrocks

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Well first off, anyone that claims Disney started the trend of decanonizing established lore is completely full of ****.  Lucas actually pretty much did this with the prequel trilogy and then subsequently with the Clone Wars TV series (which imo, is still some of the best Star Wars material canon or non-canon out there)..  I know this cause I was there when all of this **** came up.

 

For one Timothy Zahn's version of the Clone Wars was completely different than the one Lucas eventually went with, though they tried retconning things to "fit" a bit inside of the comics.

 

Tales of the Jedi presents a completely different history and structure to the origins of the Jedi and Sith.  The concept of Sith Lords all having "Darth" names came from Episode 1 first for example.  They pretty much had to create Knights of the Old Republic in response to this to actually tie things together with the prequel version of Jedi and Sith.

 

The Clone Wars TV series is even worse at doing this.  The depictions of the Nightsisters, Mandalore, and many other characters and elements in the TV series ALL directly contradict established EU at the time.

 

This is primarily one of the major factors to why it was all made non-canon by Disney. Not only that, but with them able to use the 6 movies + Clone Wars TV series as a basis for EVERYTHING, they pretty much are allowed to make the world of Star Wars more consistent.  This is why in the new Marvel comics for example, you see species and characters from all parts of the established canon.  The Darth Maul comic for example has cameos from Aurra Sing and Cad Bane...as well as aliens from Episode 7, and it takes place before Episode 1.  The Disney canon so far has done a better job making things feel more "connected" than the previous EU which was full of shoddy ****.

 

That isn't to say things are perfect.  We lost a lot of cool stuff.  Primarily Knights of the Old Republic and yeah the Zahn trilogy was pretty dope too.  With that being said, that doesn't mean the things we like from the old EU is completely lost as they seem to be willing to bring back characters from it if fan demand for it is high.


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#64
Mattropolis

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Funny

 

Mario, dude, you need to get off the internet and go breathe some fresh air or something, man. Cause right now you sound like a f*ckin lunatic.


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#65
MarioFanaticXV

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Mario, dude, you need to get off the internet and go breathe some fresh air or something, man. Cause right now you sound like a [expletive] lunatic.


The word "funny" makes someone a lunatic, but cussing is perfectly acceptable?

#66
tsgstarwars

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He has a point  :)



#67
Mattropolis

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My favorite part every time one of these legends vs new canon discussions opens up, is that, George himself is on record saying this:

 

"But there’s three worlds: There’s my world that I made up, there’s the licensing world that’s the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there’s the fans’ world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don’t always mesh. All I’m in charge of is my world. I can’t be in charge of those other people’s world, because I can’t keep up with it." -George Lucas

 

So you have the creator himself saying it's a whole other thing, and that he didn't keep up with it.

 

And yet you have these people that think it's somehow a disservice to George's legacy if Disney doesn't somehow legitimize a ton of books and comics that George never even read into their plans.

 

*shrug*


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#68
tsgstarwars

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My favorite part every time one of these legends vs new canon discussions opens up, is that, George himself is on record saying this:

 

"But there’s three worlds: There’s my world that I made up, there’s the licensing world that’s the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there’s the fans’ world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don’t always mesh. All I’m in charge of is my world. I can’t be in charge of those other people’s world, because I can’t keep up with it." -George Lucas

 

So you have the creator himself saying it's a whole other thing, and that he didn't keep up with it.

 

And yet you have these people that think it's somehow a disservice to George's legacy if Disney doesn't somehow legitimize a ton of books and comics that George never even read into their plans.

 

*shrug*

 

Defenders of Disney's canon often try to use George's legacy as an argument, but TFA messed with George's original plans as per all the quotes earlier in this thread that said the EU was George's vision and he directly imputed and veto'd things he didn't like.

Or maybe George Lucas is just inconsistent  :) .

I say it's a disservice to all the fans of Legends and all the unfinished/cancelled stories that got overwritten far more than it was George's legacy, though both factor into play



#69
R2Deakin

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Funny, when I accuse someone of trolling (such as claiming that Timothy Zahn was the father of the original Star Wars canon), I can show where and why. You just throw it out as a baseless insult.


1. No one ever claimed that. It was claimed that Zahn was the Father of Legends. Since I have already explained why that is true I won't repeat myself.

2. You literally just proclaimed that The Official Canon can't claim A New Hope as part of Canon. How can that possibly be anything but trolling?
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#70
MarioFanaticXV

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"But there’s three worlds: There’s my world that I made up, there’s the licensing world that’s the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there’s the fans’ world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don’t always mesh. All I’m in charge of is my world. I can’t be in charge of those other people’s world, because I can’t keep up with it." -George Lucas
 
So you have the creator himself saying it's a whole other thing, and that he didn't keep up with it.


Let me provide context to that quote with other quotes from Lucas:

“After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga.” ~ George Lucas, foreward in rerelease of Splinter of the Mind’s Eye

“Over the years, many artists and designers have contributed to the articulation of the various universes of Lucasfilm. Taking their cues from the minimal words of description on a script page, these talented men and women have sketched, drawn and/or modeled creatures of magnificent breadth, unimaginable terror, and mind-boggling eccentricity. Some of these creatures have made it into film, while others, because of the way stories unravel, have not (so far). But this does not mean they do not exist. For once something is created, no matter what the context, it takes on a life of its own.”
―Foreword written by George Lucas in Monsters and Aliens from George Lucas

“George Lucas says “There really isn’t any story to tell. It’s been covered in the books, and video games, and comic books which are things I think are incredibly creative.” ” George Lucas Interview with the LA times May 2008

Seems to me that Lucas considers them canon, even if he can't keep up with everything- even going so far as to say that he doesn't need to tell more stories because of the EU. And major plot points had to be checked off by him. Some things were denied- details on the Jawas and Yoda's species? Didn't fly. Zahn originally wanted Joruus C'Boath to be a clone of Obi-Wan- Lucas shot down that idea. He had major involvement in many projects like Shadows of the Empire and The Force Unleashed, to say nothing of the Ewok movies he personally wrote (how does Disney justify ignoring those?).

And while there certainly have been retcons, retcons are not a sign of a lack of continuity- rather, they're a sign that there is an effort to amend continuity for the sake of strengthening it (that doesn't mean it always works, but there's definitely the effort).

#71
Mattropolis

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I say it's a disservice to all the fans of Legends and all the unfinished/cancelled stories that got overwritten far more than it was George's legacy, though both factor into play

 

 

There's some truth here, but at the same time it was absolutely necessary. You cannot have 30 years worth of backstory, literally 150+ novels, as an entry barrier for new fans and stories going forward.

 

Do you want Star Wars to die, or to keep going on forever? Because if you want it to last this was a necessary move. And Lucasfilm/Disney has been absolutely as accommodating as possible, giving us characters like Thrawn back and tons of other shoutouts in the new canon. And the door is open for more of that.


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#72
Mattropolis

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Let me provide context to that quote with other quotes from Lucas:

“After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga.” ~ George Lucas, foreward in rerelease of Splinter of the Mind’s Eye

“Over the years, many artists and designers have contributed to the articulation of the various universes of Lucasfilm. Taking their cues from the minimal words of description on a script page, these talented men and women have sketched, drawn and/or modeled creatures of magnificent breadth, unimaginable terror, and mind-boggling eccentricity. Some of these creatures have made it into film, while others, because of the way stories unravel, have not (so far). But this does not mean they do not exist. For once something is created, no matter what the context, it takes on a life of its own.”
―Foreword written by George Lucas in Monsters and Aliens from George Lucas

“George Lucas says “There really isn’t any story to tell. It’s been covered in the books, and video games, and comic books which are things I think are incredibly creative.” ” George Lucas Interview with the LA times May 2008

Seems to me that Lucas considers them canon, even if he can't keep up with everything- even going so far as to say that he doesn't need to tell more stories because of the EU. And major plot points had to be checked off by him. Some things were denied- details on the Jawas and Yoda's species? Didn't fly. Zahn originally wanted Joruus C'Boath to be a clone of Obi-Wan- Lucas shot down that idea. He had major involvement in many projects like Shadows of the Empire and The Force Unleashed, to say nothing of the Ewok movies he personally wrote (how does Disney justify ignoring those?).

And while there certainly have been retcons, retcons are not a sign of a lack of continuity- rather, they're a sign that there is an effort to amend continuity for the sake of strengthening it (that doesn't mean it always works, but there's definitely the effort).

 

Mario, I don't even know what you are arguing anymore. You know before the Disney purchase there were the different levels of canon, yeah? The EU was never considered that same level as George's stuff even then. George considering them canon means nothing. Everything was canon before, with G canon being the top level and everything else being "less so". So unless George came out and was like "yes x thing is not only canon but G level canon" then it didn't count in his eyes or Lucasfilm's eyes as much as George's stuff. Leaving open the possibility for a retcon or continuity error (like Even Piell's death or numerous other examples).

 

And George and Lucasfilm were making money from all of that material. They're not gonna straight up say "oh yeah, none of that counts, don't buy it". That's not a smart business decision.


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#73
Mattropolis

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to say nothing of the Ewok movies he personally wrote (how does Disney justify ignoring those?).

 

This is the one thing I agree with you on.

 

Those were the original standalone movies, waaaay before Rogue One or Han Solo.

 

#EwokMoviesForever


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#74
bmtrocks

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Also George Lucas was already planning on throwing away the good majority of the old EU cause he was planning on doing a sequel trilogy with his own original story based on the children of the Skywalker family that were unrelated to the ones seen in the books DIRECTLY before the Disney buyout.  Disney is just initiating the same plan in a different way (notably, it's been stated he was literally going to make them young kids ala Anakin in Episode 1).  Rogue One also was going to be one of his projects.


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#75
MarioFanaticXV

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There's some truth here, but at the same time it was absolutely necessary. You cannot have 30 years worth of backstory, literally 150+ novels, as an entry barrier for new fans and stories going forward.
 
Do you want Star Wars to die, or to keep going on forever? Because if you want it to last this was a necessary move. And Lucasfilm/Disney has been absolutely as accommodating as possible, giving us characters like Thrawn back and tons of other shoutouts in the new canon. And the door is open for more of that.


As I said before, I'd be fine with them ending Lucas canon and starting their own IF they had done it properly. They should have allowed it time to wrap up. Then, once the original Star Wars Saga was complete, they could release Rogue One as its own thing and avoided all of this mess.

As for there being different levels of canon... There kind of has to be. After all, any project this big is going to have contradictions, and there needs to be a way to sort through them.

#76
Rio

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So I recently picked up this game after a long hiatus (I pretty much stopped after Edge of Darkness) and while I'm having fun catching up with the newer sets and relearning the game, I was thinking how much more fun it would be to have a bit more variety in my pickings rather than focusing exclusively on the Galactic Civil War.  Maybe I was spoiled by Star Wars: Destiny, but alas...here's how I'd like to see the prequels and sequels implemented into the game.
 
Prequels:
 
First I'd introduce all new factions: Separatists and Republic.
 
However these two factions are unique in one major way:  Some objective can be used for both Light and Dark side decks, featuring a split back that represents the split between the light and dark.  Not all are like this, however.  Some are exclusively Dark Side and some are exclusively Light Side.
 
Separatists and Republic factions also have a clause on their faction cards stating their resources can be used to play Rebel and Imperial cards, but the Reserve is 5 instead of 6.
 
Aside from that, the other four factions remain the same.  I suggest a Deluxe Set that focuses primarily on Separatists and Republic aka a "Clone Wars" set to introduce the mechanic, with a force pack cycle that includes a load of Separatist and Republic cards as well.  While it'll be jarring, remember that both of them can be used in Rebel and Imperial decks you already own cards for as well, so they more or less act as proxies.
 
Sequels:
 
For the sequels, I'd just do a reskin of the Core Set more or less.  Not necessarily  just replacing card names or whatever, but keep the simplicity but have it set in the Sequel era.  Aka for Vader's Core Set objective set, there will be a Kylo Ren version.  For Palpatine's Core Set objective set, there will be a Snoke version, etc. etc.  The cards won't be the same but will function the same way in that it allows players to pick up and play the game.
 
However I would not do this UNTIL the sequels are all finished, that we there's a good grasp of what they entail.
 
Sith will be replaced by Knights of Ren, Rebels will be replaced by Resistance, and Imperials will be replaced by First Order.  However all will have a clause that states that they also count as their original versions.  Basically, they're just renames with a different logo of the same factions.
 
What exactly would you guys do with these two eras?


I like these ideas. However, how would you make the cards that share DS and LS?
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#77
bmtrocks

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I like these ideas. However, how would you make the cards that share DS and LS?

Well there's two ways one can approach it:

 

1. Have a unified card back that, while will clash unsleeved, will be covered up in sleeves anyway so it'll protect players from knowing you're playing a Dark Side/Light Side card at the same time.

 

2. Have two different versions of the same pod just with a different card back (might piss off players cause they would probably print it to where you have to buy two copies of each set to get a full playset of both).

 

Either way changing allegiances is a huge aspect of the prequel trilogy, so I think it'd be represented best if we introduce cards that can be played in both Light Side and Dark Side decks.  Also since the Republic is technically more or less the same as the Empire, it'd be weird to not be able to combine the two together in some capacity.


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#78
Rio

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Well there's two ways one can approach it:
 
1. Have a unified card back that, while will clash unsleeved, will be covered up in sleeves anyway so it'll protect players from knowing you're playing a Dark Side/Light Side card at the same time.
 
2. Have two different versions of the same pod just with a different card back (might piss off players cause they would probably print it to where you have to buy two copies of each set to get a full playset of both).
 
Either way changing allegiances is a huge aspect of the prequel trilogy, so I think it'd be represented best if we introduce cards that can be played in both Light Side and Dark Side decks.  Also since the Republic is technically more or less the same as the Empire, it'd be weird to not be able to combine the two together in some capacity.


I agree, I like the idea. I use sleeves so it really wouldn't matter to me. :)

#79
MarioFanaticXV

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If you're going to go the "must-be-sleeved in non-transparent sleeves" route anyways, why not forgo backs altogether? Have one side be a light side version of the unit, the other a dark side version. Some would just be a faction change, while others could be drastically different for light and dark side versions. Also, you wouldn't even need to limit this to light/dark side- you could have Padawan Obi-Wan on one side, then when certain conditions are fulfilled, they flip and become Knight or Master Obi-Wan.

#80
drybones

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A New Hope is Lucas canon. It directly contradicts Disney canon with entirely different versions of the characters they share. It'd be one thing if Disney tried to make their movies connect to the originals and made it seem like they were using them as a starting point, but it's pretty clear from The Force Awakens that it has no story line connection to the original films.

If you're questioning whether or not Disney tried to make their movies connect to the originals, I ask simply this: Go watch the last 5 minutes of Rogue One, then go watch the first 5 minutes of A New Hope.


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