111 replies to this topic

[sparrowhawk]

It's been a long time since I've started a thread here because CGDB Thrones has been dead. But seeing so many talkative Conquest players here raises my hopes. Just as I did with the original Zarathur Deck Thread, I shall start the ball rolling and hope this encourages others (Kingsley, Ignithas, Zilvake, xRAVEx etc) to start their own threads on their favourite Clan.

 

Note: this is all theorycraft (I wasn't even a playtester) so treat it accordingly as simply a conversation starter. I'm certainly not saying this is right (that Zarathur first post was so wrong in places). But someone has to go out on a limb...

 

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So Dragon (Core Set pool) - what are its strengths and weaknesses?

 

STRENGTHS

 

1. Balanced - this is vital with Kuroi Mori defining the meta. Dragon can resist Military or Political focused builds sufficiently to prevent breaking whilst at least breaking provinces in the opponent's weaker conflict type.

 

2. Always Relevant Stronghold - whilst many Strongholds can be played around, Mountain's Anvil Castle is almost always +2 to a conflict assuming a deep enough Conflict attachment presence; with 0 cost attachments, that's +6 bonus threat to any attack.

 

3. Threat of Restoration of Balance - this is nuanced but the knowledge that you may lose all except 4 cards requires cautious honour bids, reducing opponent's options (I expect this hurts Scorpion a lot); along with Mirumoto's Fury, this promotes exploration until it is triggered. 

 

4. Most likely to claim Pass bonus - build tall (attachments) and long (Fate permanence) and not wide (weenies) requires less Dynasty actions hence most likely to gain 1 free Fate each turn.

 

5. Keeper of Void - this is perfect for Dragon, deterring opponents from attacking in the Ring they care most about it (as they build their tall towers long) and gaining key influence for Conflict cards; as Void is a lead-up to Water going first, this pushes opponent down the other 3 rings (and your card draw diminishes Earth); the Keeper Initiate is anti-synergetic with Secluded Temple but they are too good in this small pool.

 

6. Some of the best Dynasty cards - Doomed Shugenja (no other Limited), Agashi Swordsmith (unconditional anytime draw, pros/cons vs. Yasuki), Mirumoto Prodigy (game winner tooled up, especially with Covert), Niten Adept (rare bow, great defender), Kitsuki Investigator (use defending before contesting that ring or in attack as 2nd conflict going 2nd) and Togashi Yokunu (arguably strongest champion, design is opposite of Win More), as well as strong Military high end for Charge; all clans have some good Dynasty cards but Dragon's many good Dynasty cards are almost unconditionally good.

 

7. Most efficient attachment control - inefficiency and telegraphed nature of Miya Mystic means Dragon have mastery of the card type they specialise in - which every clan needs to play in a Core Set pool; the tempo loss of Let Go on Pacifism can be game winning (Calling in Favours dishonours, costs 1).

 

8. Less reliant on events - two Clans have cancel which makes it dangerous relying on events (which are very powerful to offset their one use nature); Dragon rely less on their events.

 

WEAKNESSES

 

1. Removal - tower builds have always been vulnerable to removal and here are some of the main threats:

 

A. Assassination - the Mirumoto Prodigy built tall has a target on it and lives on borrowed time as does a Niten Adept that demands an attachment to be useful; possible defences are Kitsuki Investigator to scout hand, Reprieve/Above Question or Voice of Honour that requires a Court Games or Fire ring set up (hence ideally Keeper of Fire); Dragon lacks the courtiers for Forged Edict.

 

B. Fallen In Battle + Way of the Crab going first next Dynasty can be brutal; Dragon must go wider vs Crab to combat this threat and unlike Above Question, Reprieve saves against forced sacrifice in L5R but not cost sacrifice (someone will correct me if I'm wrong); Keeper Initiate is key to negating this threat.

 

C. Way of the Scorpion/Court Games + I Can Swim; here Voice of Honour will be devastating (if no Forged Edict) but Reprieve/Above Question is again the insurance policy for your tower (and can be stacked cheaply with Daimyo's Favor).

 

2. Solo participant threats - For Shame requires the tower to conflict Politics with an expendable whilst Admit Defeat means Indomitable Will is limited to Military attack vs. Crane; there are also rarer cards like Master of Spears; any effect that gives opponent the choice of target hurts tower builds that often lacks the spare escort or requires solo like Mirumoto Prodigy.

 

3. Bow/expel effects - thankfully, many forced bow/expel home (Brawler, Rout, Outwit) requires greater stats but Water can always bow your tower once all Fate is gone (implying you time it to be first player in that 0 Fate turn) and Phoenix can kneel your Champion; "does not bow at end of conflict" effects like Indomitable Will, Sashimono and Mountain Does Not Fall does not help against bow effects, just Water ring, Niten Master (usually after first attacking in Politics to tempt a bow card) and Lion's Ready for Battle (Phoenix with Dragon can run Voltron builds very well due to Against the Waves).

 

4. Dishonour - if you deploy long (lots of Fate), you are hurt longer by Dishonour as all your units are 1+ Glory; this can be leveraged to your advantage hence Void (longterm board presence) and Fire (board presence size, lagged card advantage) should be the main Rings focus (hence Keeper of Void with Mantle of Fire as the deterrent); Court Games is a must.

 

5. Poor traits - Monk is the least supported of the 4 main traits and whilst there is sufficient Bushi for Rout, opponents know they are safe from Courtier cards; this is exacerbated by Monk-referencing cards being edge case and one even has the anti-synergy of "No Most Attachments".

 

6. Conflict cards lack depth - cards like Let Go, Mirumoto's Fury, Indomitable Will and Tattooed Wanderer (reducable by Daimyo's Favor) are strong but the rest of the pool is meh, forcing the tower build in Core pool (relies heavily on an early Daimyo's Favour); strong Neutrals and Keeper role mitigates this but make Dragon Conflict cards quite predictable, lacking in variety.

 

7. Secluded Temple situational - in combination with Keepers granting Fate to sacrifice and Limited Shugenja pressuring province slots, the holding is golden against Lion but can be played around by other opponents who then deny you the first pass Fate.

 

8. No Secondary Win Condition - Crane/Lion can threaten Honour Victory, Scorpion/Crab threaten Dishonour Victory, there is no reason for Dragon to pick Air unless an opportunity presents itself (opponent's error); Ancestral items and Swordsmiths fund your draw but the Dragon game plan is singularly a Province Victory.

 

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I am sure far better players more conversant with the game can list more Strengths and Weaknesses but the above were my first impressions. So with this in mind, as it is easier to focus on a build (and eviscerate its poor choices), let's go fully out on a limb with an example build.

 

Dragon with Crab

Keeper of Void

 

+2 Mountain's Anvil Castle*

4 Meditations on the Tao (f)

5 Entrenched Position (e) 

4 Manicured Garden (a)

4 Elemental Fury (w)

3 Shameful Display (v)

 

The idea is to have Meditations on the Tao in your 'Hold unless facing Lion, Unicorn or Crab when Entrenched Position is there instead. Thus not seeing a Fire province keeps the opponent's card draw in check due to the threat of Restoration of Balance. As Mirumoto's Fury encourages scouting rather than alpha strikes, Elemental Fury is preferred to Rally the Cause (which should be similarly feared), especially to trigger Keeper of Void for Initiates or to deny opponent's Role/Initiates. In a Crab build that has Mountain Does Not Fall, Shameful Display is better than Pilgrimage.

 

1x 1-x-2-1 Otomo Courtier [c]

3x 1-3-3-1 Doomed Shugenja [s]

3x 1-1-1-2 Togashi Initiate [m]

3x 2-1-2-1 Agasha Swordsmith [s]

3x 2-2-2-1 Mirumoto Prodigy [b]

3x 2-2-1-1 Niten Adept [b]

3x 2-1-1-1 Seeker of Enlightenment [m]

3x 2-1-1-2 Keeper Initiate [m]

3x 3-2-2-1 Enlightened Warrior [b]

3x 3-1-3-2 Kitsuki Investigator [c]

3x 3-3-2-1 Mirumoto Raitsugu* [b]

3x 4-3-3-2 Niten Master [b]

3x 5-5-5-3 Togashi Yokuni* [b,s]

3x +1 Imperial Storehouse

 

Imperial Storehouses are preferred because [a] they can be sacrificed early to deny Crab effects, [b] sacrificed in Conflict if it doesn't affect the result, [c] always pays back a free card unlike Favourable Grounds revealed as 2nd player (which gets alpha striked for +1 value) and [d] does not congest Province slots, a requisite with Limited cards. Weapons should go on Niten Master and/or Mirumoto Raitsugu. Seeker of Enlightenment and Enlightened Warrior (a good longterm tower) needs support from Togashi Initiate and Kitsuki Investigator. Raitsugu is unique so you can luck into a duplicate free Fate and the build's card draw helps with bids resulting in lower Honour pressure for Duels (as well as Weapon pumps). Having 3 cost Towers is key vs. Assassination and Blackmail so you have to work with your limited card pool. The sole Otomo Courtier is a Political conflict escort (vs. For Shame).

 

3x 0 Fine Katana

3x 0 Ornate Fan

3x 0 Daimyo's Favor

3x 1 Ancestral Daisho

3x 1 Kitsuki's Method

3x 1 Reprieve [3]

3x 1 Tattooed Wanderer

1x 3 Togashi Kazue*

3x 0 Court Games

3x 0 Let Go

3x 1 Charge

3x 1 Mountain Does Not Fall [9]

3x 1 Indomitable Will

3x 1 Mirumoto's Fury

 

How many is too many Restricted? At 2 per character with 6 costing 0 and 6 free with Daimyo's Favour, I am starting with 12 in 40 to ensure Stronghold provides +2 and to leverage Niten Master as well as have +6 Politics potential. Maybe that's too much (there is Earth and Fire Province choose discards) but you need to start somewhere. 18 attachments in 40 makes Swordsmith an almost sure thing while 13 cards are reducable by Daimyo's Favour, pseudo economy that complements the indirect card draw of Ancestral and Storehouses (edge case: a nice Hida Kisada action sink). Mountain Does Not Fall helps win the province breaking race, leveraging the Tower in 3 conflicts. Whilst Reprieve not only protects against bane removal effects but also combos with Charge for your high end; 2 turns of Yokuni on the cheap can be game-winning tempo.

 

Lion option

 

3x 1 Guidance of the Ancestors [3]

3x 2 Sashimono [6]

3x 0 Ready for Battle [3]

 

Crane option

 

3x 1 Above Question [3]

3x 1 Duellist Training [3]

3x 0 Voice of Honour [6]

 

In the end, I chose Crab because it combines the protection of Reprieve with the tower multi-use of Mountain Does Not Fall. Perhaps there are better choices. Perhaps I've made a laughable decision with 30% Restricted. Or skipping Way of the Dragon that feels "win more" with limited optimal hosts (and risk of Calling in Favours, Let Go tempo loss etc). Perhaps I'm just making a fool of myself...

 

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Please comment below. Better still, start another Clan Deck Thread with an appraisal of what makes the Clan unique to play. Old time Conquest/Thrones players will know that my intention is simply to provoke a sequence of Deck Threads for each of the other 6 Clans so that we all have a resource, starter threads to consult. And don't forget the Conquest forum philosophy: no idea is a bad idea - so let's not fall prey to boring Groupthink.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Currently debating between Dragon or Lion--sort of opposites, but I'd rather be at one end of the build wide/build tall spectrum than in the middle for my personal playstyle in card games. I have been debating Dragon with Crane, as you suggest as a possibility, although I might include Steward of Law as a good choice for the splash. Alternately, I've been thinking of including Phoenix, for Shugenja and ring manipulation shenanigans. Know the World seems extremely strong with spending fate to rings, and since the Dragon Champion is Shugenja-traited alongside a couple other in-clan Shugenja and some splashable conflict deck options, some of those effects become quite potent.

 

Thanks for making this thread, also! I'd start a Lion one, but I'm way too fried after getting home from GenCon to be able to put together anything coherent at a reasonable length.

[WWDrakey]

A few quick notes:

- You didn't list Endless Plains here, seems relevant to your list of threats. Can partly be mitigated by more meticulous scouting but when playing high instead of wide, can more easily lead to accidental blowouts (or just bleed tempo by forcing you into slower & more careful play).

- I would underline the Dishonor weakness as Dragon gets a bit of a double-whammy there: You're playing characters to stay out longer durations and seem to exhibit a balanced set of skills (Dishonored 2/2 + 2 glory goes to 0/0, 4/- to 2/-). This is exasperated by the fact that Dragon seems to have no in-Faction honoring, but rather needs to rely on Court Games or Ring of Fire. While concentrating on Ring of Fire to offset may look simple on paper, I'd expect dishonor-able Clans to also be aware of this & try to deny it (e.g. chump attack on Ring of Fire to make sure you don't get the effect to clear a tower of dishonor). Similarly I'd kind of look at Voice of Honor a bit dubiously in Dragon - both Crane & Scorpion will not break a sweat in denying that from you with their own honoring / dishonoring effects. Essentially, I'd expect the Clan with their own effects + ring at their disposal to always have an edge in the dishonoring / honoring game against those without effects. 

- I'd maybe also look at bowing a bit more in-depth: Dragon itself will likely be a common splash (for Let Go), so Mirumoto's Fury could (on the side) make it's way into quite a few decks... and due to targeting based on Glory can easily bite the Clan back in the proverbial.

- On the plus side, I'd list that the Ancestral attachments & Agasha Swordsmith (for finding them) mean the Clan is hard to deny cards from, in the late game, even if running low on honor & forced to bid low. 

[sparrowhawk]

Currently debating between Dragon or Lion--sort of opposites, but I'd rather be at one end of the build wide/build tall spectrum than in the middle for my personal playstyle in card games. I have been debating Dragon with Crane, as you suggest as a possibility, although I might include Steward of Law as a good choice for the splash. Alternately, I've been thinking of including Phoenix, for Shugenja and ring manipulation shenanigans. Know the World seems extremely strong with spending fate to rings, and since the Dragon Champion is Shugenja-traited alongside a couple other in-clan Shugenja and some splashable conflict deck options, some of those effects become quite potent.

 

Thanks for making this thread, also! I'd start a Lion one, but I'm way too fried after getting home from GenCon to be able to put together anything coherent at a reasonable length.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Phoenix is interesting but I think I prefer the reverse Phoenix with Dragon, making Shugenjas into voltron towers, protected by Shiba Yojimbo and being readied by Against the Waves. Their high glory with Asako Diplomats adds to high stakes on Ring of Fire so I probably would have preferred if the Hatamoto had chosen Keeper of Fire. At least Phoenix can bully/reuse Rings.

 

Crane is definitely a solid choice and I see your reasons for Steward Law, combating opponent's Ring of Fire attacks dishonouring your tower, Probably better than my contentious Duellist Training choice (attachment, can leverage your high MIL).

 

Looking forward to your Lion Deck Thread, sir.

[sparrowhawk]

A few quick notes:

- You didn't list Endless Plains here, seems relevant to your list of threats. Can partly be mitigated by more meticulous scouting but when playing high instead of wide, can more easily lead to accidental blowouts (or just bleed tempo by forcing you into slower & more careful play).

- I would underline the Dishonor weakness as Dragon gets a bit of a double-whammy there: You're playing characters to stay out longer durations and seem to exhibit a balanced set of skills (Dishonored 2/2 + 2 glory goes to 0/0, 4/- to 2/-). This is exasperated by the fact that Dragon seems to have no in-Faction honoring, but rather needs to rely on Court Games or Ring of Fire. While concentrating on Ring of Fire to offset may look simple on paper, I'd expect dishonor-able Clans to also be aware of this & try to deny it (e.g. chump attack on Ring of Fire to make sure you don't get the effect to clear a tower of dishonor). Similarly I'd kind of look at Voice of Honor a bit dubiously in Dragon - both Crane & Scorpion will not break a sweat in denying that from you with their own honoring / dishonoring effects. Essentially, I'd expect the Clan with their own effects + ring at their disposal to always have an edge in the dishonoring / honoring game against those without effects. 

- I'd maybe also look at bowing a bit more in-depth: Dragon itself will likely be a common splash (for Let Go), so Mirumoto's Fury could (on the side) make it's way into quite a few decks... and due to targeting based on Glory can easily bite the Clan back in the proverbial.

- On the plus side, I'd list that the Ancestral attachments & Agasha Swordsmith (for finding them) mean the Clan is hard to deny cards from, in the late game, even if running low on honor & forced to bid low. 

 

Firstly, what an unexpected delight to see you here, Drakey! It appears that this elegantly designed game, a fusion of so many vaguely familiar mechanics that is its own sum-greater-than-its-parts entity, the agonising trade off decisions of tall vs. wide vs. long, it is bringing a lot of familiar names out of the woodwork. The gorgeous aesthetics is also a factor.

 

You make very good points as always, sir. If I may summarise...

 

All Control effects are amplified against tower builds:

 

- hard control, of which Endless Plains joins the list above, requiring the tower to be chump escorted when exploring against Unicorn

 

- soft control, when Mirumoto's Fury can bow the attacking tower, at least in the early game (making Crane for Above Question more attractive)

 

You also make the valid point that trying to play the Fire Ring focus game outside of Crane, Scorpion and Phoenix (Asako Diplomat) is doomed to be too ambitious as they have the tools in-Clan. So Voice of Honour is unreliable at best. Conditional cancel was a reason why I preferred Crab.

 

Finally, I agree I did not explicitly detail that Dragon have got very good late game sustained card draw. It needs to be added as an advantage.

 

 

Will we be seeing a Deck Thread started by yourself, Drakey? My suspicion is your refined sensibilities would be attracted to Phoenix, Crane or Scorpion with their combo plays. But whichever takes your fancy, it would be great to have your thoughts and musings by starting a new Deck Thread...

[WWDrakey]

Firstly, what an unexpected delight to see you here, Drakey! It appears that this elegantly designed game, a fusion of so many vaguely familiar mechanics that is its own sum-greater-than-its-parts entity, the agonising trade off decisions of tall vs. wide vs. long, it is bringing a lot of familiar names out of the woodwork. The gorgeous aesthetics is also a factor.

 

...

 

Will we be seeing a Deck Thread started by yourself, Drakey? My suspicion is your refined sensibilities would be attracted to Phoenix, Crane or Scorpion with their combo plays. But whichever takes your fancy, it would be great to have your thoughts and musings by starting a new Deck Thread...

 

I had to admit I've been quite impatiently waiting for the game to come out for a long time. Partially ever since FFG bought it (I love the IP - I played the CCG quite a bit casually locally & even dabbled with the RPG) but even more after I saw what the new game looked like mechanically (for full disclosure, see L2P). I'd say that in the grand scheme of things it is likely FFGs masterpiece in the LCG genre. Or, at least to my sensibilities. (At least in it's core basics, what happens when more cards are added is always anybody's guess!) 

 

As you say, it merges a lot of good sides from different LCGs (Conquest's turn phasing, Netrunner's hidden information with provinces, AGoT 1.0's cost curves & feeling of conflicts, CoC's build freedom with actually being able to run a lot of non-character cards) with gorgeous aesthetics. But really what I find even more important are the aesthetically clean but very strategically deep additions of the draw-honor bids & fate mechanic. Had me sold pretty quickly.

 

That said, I'll likely be mostly just lurking around and poking my head in here & there with forums, so I'm not sure if I'm up to the task of actually starting up & writing out my thoughts yet on Crane (which I've been quite loyal to, ever since the CCG... I've always been firm on advocating for culture & civility, which are what can really elevate us from our baser impulses). Partially since real-life has this irritating tendency of demanding too much of my attention & partially since I've yet to start really concentrating on how my Clan can perform to it's fullest.

 

SO much there (with Honor/Dishonor both being somewhat possible in addition to province breaking) depends on how the bidding culture develops and how Crane can leverage low bids to tie the opponent's hands, then build-in card advantage to turn a more austere game towards a desired direction.

 

EDIT: Good guesses with Clans btw, both Phoenix & Scorpion are definitely clans that could tempt me here!

[sparrowhawk]

Good guesses with Clans btw, both Phoenix & Scorpion are definitely clans that could tempt me here!

Was easy - you are such an Epicurean "win with style" card gamer. Never the easy path. Me, I'm more pragmatic Mantis - if a cheap peasant harvesting tool can kill my enemies effectively, I will wield 2 of them...

I concur the mechanics are fascinating, the elegant solution for crowded boards especially. Prior card games had build wide or tall but not long. As a Customer Lifetime Value modeller in a prior life, I really appreciate the add of the Tenure dimension in the Return On Investment equation we subconsciously formulate when evaluating cards for inclusion and now permanence.

On the ebb and flow of card draw via the Honour Victory / Loss bookends, the subtlety feels very advanced for a Core Set game. I only hope they do not have unavoidable Honour Loss / Gain cards and I don't think they will (you need to win with an Honoured Blade, exceed with Asami, have a choice with For Shame, contest Air or Fire etc). A pressure approach feels infinitely more nuanced than brutal Lose/Gain X Honour cards. Please no.

It's very impressive but not quite a masterpiece. Here's are my minor quibbles.

I wish they had an elegant mechanic to track actions (like focus tokens in Star Wars). Tapping is the "used" indicator but Andres likes limted activation abilities (e.g. SM chaplain in Conquest, Mavros?) And the inelegance of keeping track irks me. What would have been better was something like double sided Fate tokens and you simply flipped them to trigger actions (so Fate adds permanence and listed action triggers). Adding an activated token would be too much clutter.

Kuroi Mori enforcing balance. I would have preferred diversity in build shapes, at least until alternate Win Conditions can be fleshed out. The province came too early, stunting build diversity and even splash choices.

The rule book needed the pedantic diligence of Patrick Brennan (Conquest, Thrones2) as it's quite sloppy for what we expect.

The lost opportunity in adding bluff to the face down provinces a la Netrunner. Cards can add this in.

The lost opportunity of using Roles as a balancer in reverse order.

Just my opinion. Please don't flame me, die-hards!

I look forward to your perceptive Crane thread (hint!)...

[nightcrawlers]

I've currently got two concepts I plan to flush out when I get back from traveling

A) killer duelist/clan champ. Using way of the dragon on a duelist and champ to wipe out ur opponents board every turn. Probably splash crab for the mountain does not fall and reprieve, I considered jade tetsubo (spelling?) as well but that might be greedy.

discard heavy investigators. Way of the dragon+champ+ investigator+spies at court+earth ring and then dragon province as well (if only we were seekers of fire for this). Might run court games as well to protect ur dishonored guy. Maybe splash crane to keep those events in their hands so you can discard them.

Yes these all seem easily derailed. But gotta live the dream and test it out

[nightcrawlers]

What's everyone's thoughts on Way of the Dragon? It's a x2 for me, would probably cut once more dragon attachments come out

[Kingsley]

What's everyone's thoughts on Way of the Dragon? It's a x2 for me, would probably cut once more dragon attachments come out

 

0x for me. Two cost attachments are really weak in the current Let Go/Calling In Favors-heavy environment, and while Way of the Dragon can be really strong on some guys it's not good enough "on average" to be worth it.

[nightcrawlers]

0x for me. Two cost attachments are really weak in the current Let Go/Calling In Favors-heavy environment, and while Way of the Dragon can be really strong on some guys it's not good enough "on average" to be worth it.

It's a 1 cost with daymios favor.. the only way i play it

[AllenBJones]

Here is what I got after seeing that the deck was too attachment heavy for me. I had big dudes sure, but the problem was I had no actions but big dudes. I then remembered Space Marine decks in Conquest LCG where with superior deck draw you can run lighter attachments. Please let me know what you think about this beta build as I will update from playtesting on OCTGN:

 

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Legend of the Five Rings Deckbuilder

 

 

Deck Clan: Dragon

 

Total Cards: (85)

 

Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)

 

Total Influence: (13/13)

 

Stronghold:  

1x Mountain’s Anvil Castle (Core Set #3)

 

Role:  

1x Keeper of Void (Core Set #218A)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  

1x Ancestral Lands (Core Set #15)

1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)

1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)

1x Pilgrimage (Core Set #22)

1x Rally to the Cause (Core Set #23)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (40)  

3x Agasha Swordsmith (Core Set #56)

3x Doomed Shugenja (Core Set #54)

2x Enlightened Warrior (Core Set #60)

3x Kitsuki Investigator (Core Set #61)

3x Mirumoto Prodigy (Core Set #57)

2x Mirumoto Raitsugu (Core Set #62)

3x Niten Adept (Core Set #58)

3x Seeker of Enlightenment (Core Set #59)

3x Togashi Initiate (Core Set #55)

3x Togashi Yokuni (Core Set #65)

3x Seppun Guardsman (Core Set #123)

3x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)

3x Otomo Courtier (Core Set #122)

 

Character [Conflict]: (3/10)  

3x Tattooed Wanderer (Core Set #149)

 

 

Attachment: (8)  

3x Ancestral Daishō (Core Set #151)

2x Height of Fashion (Core Set #143)

3x Kitsuki’s Method (Core Set #153)

 

Event: (29)  

2x Admit Defeat (Core Set #147)

3x Assassination (Core Set #203)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

3x Indomitable Will (Core Set #158)

3x Let Go (Core Set #155)

3x Mantra of Fire (Core Set #156)

3x Mirumoto’s Fury (Core Set #159)

3x Rout (Core Set #213)

3x Spies at Court (Core Set #209)

3x The Perfect Gift (Core Set #144)

 

Holding: (3)  

3x Secluded Temple (Core Set #66)

[Hakkor]

Way of the Dragon on Yokuni is devastating, also synergizes with the stronghold, can be reduced in cost and a complete coflict swing on Ninten Adept. That's a 2x no brainer, and would consider de third copy depending on the conflict deck characters with no "max 1 por round" actions. Other characters also greatly benefit from the attachment, such as duelists (it even works with Crane's duelist trainig), the enlightened Warrior (he becomes inmortal, being able to resist even a ring of void). As new character are released, the Way of the Dragon will only increase in value.

 

And I'm not sure if your opponent will "let it go" so hastily knowing that Kazue could be around. Also, your opponent may sometimes fall into getting rid of a fine katana in order to win a conflict.,

[sparrowhawk]

Oh! Some activity in the Dragon thread. Gasp! I'm so used to seeing the Crab thread at the top of the forum that this is a pleasant surprise.

 

In Thrones, the defensive Night's Watch thread dominated the forum (whilst it lasted) and now I see the Crab thread dominating discussion. I'm sure there's a common link there but I just can't seem to put my finger on it...

 

Way of the Dragon on Yokuni is devastating, also synergizes with the stronghold, can be reduced in cost and a complete coflict swing on Ninten Adept. That's a 2x no brainer, and would consider de third copy depending on the conflict deck characters with no "max 1 por round" actions. Other characters also greatly benefit from the attachment, such as duelists (it even works with Crane's duelist trainig), the enlightened Warrior (he becomes inmortal, being able to resist even a ring of void). As new character are released, the Way of the Dragon will only increase in value.

 

And I'm not sure if your opponent will "let it go" so hastily knowing that Kazue could be around. Also, your opponent may sometimes fall into getting rid of a fine katana in order to win a conflict.,

 

I have to cautiously and courteously disagree. To me, Way of the Dragon is the epitome of flashy Win More. You will remember it when it works so well but for most games, it will be there in your hand waiting for the right host to justify its cost. A tempo loss against anyone splashing Dragon and a liability against anyone splashing Scorpion. I'm not saying it's not playable in the future, just not in the current pool because one of my main reasons is the lack of good hosts.

 

 

Niten Adept + Daimyo's Favour + Way of the Dragon

 

This is the cheapest way you can get the double trigger. More probably, it will be a Katana or Daisho to also threaten province break solo (because Daimyo's Favour should really be used with 2 Ancestrals + Tattooed Wanderer etc in your main Tower). So you have spent 1D + 2C + 3F (minimum) to get this threat that dies to common Assassination for 1C + 3H.

 

 

Agashi Swordsmith + Way of the Dragon

 

Paying 1C + 2F to effectively draw 1C for c.2 turns (not too long due to Assassination) seems poor value.

 

 

Kitsuki Investigator + Way of the Dragon

 

Paying 2F to rings to trigger this powerful ability twice whilst synergising with Seeker of Enlightenment and Enlightened Warrior is a very purist control approach that costs 1D + 1C + (5+N)F upfront then 2F x (N+1) in total where N = extra fate on Investigator. A very expensive investment, although in defence or attacking in conflict 4, you can recoup your Fate investment. This has potential but suffers from diminishing returns (the 1st card you pick is always better than the 2nd card). Plus much of the power of the Investigator is scouting their hand, the 1st and often only use.

 

 

Enlightened Warrior + Way of the Dragon

 

Now this is my favourite host for a tower of attachments because of its permanence when combined with Investigator and Togashi Initiate (which can't be triggered in defence so feeds the Warrior) spreading the Fate so that the opponent must keep it going. But it needs those support characters to force the opponent to collect fate to keep it going. With Way of the Dragon on it, you will ensure the opponent will refuse to pick rings with Fate to trigger it twice and just wait for the 5F investment to fade away. So in some ways, it does mitigate any Fate spent on rings with your other haracters (including Ascetic Visionary if you play a partial no attachments character in the attachments faction). This is not to be sniffed at but requires set up and your cards to align.

 

 

Mirumoto Ratsuga + Way of the Dragon

 

This is a threatening tower: Raitsuga + Daimyo's Favour + 2x Daisho/Katana + Way of the Dragon. Remove 2F or discard 2 fateless characters with 2 Duels with base Military 8. But the defender can first Outwit him or other ways to control him. And even with Military overlap pre-duel, there is still a minimum honour bid needed to guarantee the win. Duels are expensive unless outclassed (and why would they defend if outclassed?). So again, it just feels like Win More, unnecessary extra threat when I would probably prefer +2F on Raitsuga and a different conflict trick in hand (like Banzai).

 

 

Togashi Yokuni + Way of the Dragon

 

Oh the Magical Christmas Land dream of having this while facing Tsukune. But it's highly unlikely you can afford to play Yokuni + 2F + Way of the Dragon in the same turn. So you are already only using it for 1 turn less than the lifetime of Yokuni. But an opponent will deploy accordingly after Yokuni enters play to minimise targets. And as demonstrated above, there are very few triggered abilities in Dragon core dynasty pool that can be stolen. I feel Yokuni is incredibly strong but only because he is balanced, is not too nerfed by Dishonour and is the opposite of Win More; he will help you win from a losing a position (whilst an unbalanced champion may just reinforce the conflict type that you already dominate in the match-up) and becomes stronger the more dangerous the opposition, hence forcing opponents to power down. Of course this is possibly an amazing combination, But with 2 clan kill cards based on Dishonour and him being a good target (reducing him to Crane Stronghold and Shoju threat range, the clans with Dishonour kills), I try to build my tower of attachments on a less juicy target (cost 3+), often because you can then deploy them longer with more fate for greater duration. My Yokuni tends to appear more as cameos, in a Charge stealing their Lion's Pride Brawler ability then Reprieve him before the Fate phase (I play in Crab). Because you want to give the opponent hard choices if he does have neutralise/kill cards. Building on Yakuni is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. Still, I have to agree it will be awesome when it works.

 

 

So in summary, there really are only 3 satisfactory hosts (all at cost 3+) for Way of the Dragon = 9 cards in 40. Would people play Cloud the Mind with 9 Shugenja? I dunno. Maybe I'm conservative, prefer dull unflashy consistency over high variance "but look what happens if I get the combo" memorable plays. And that's not even discussing the opportunity cost of the cards you could have picked instead but not in your deck.

 

 

I don't think Way of the Dragon is awful - it will become good with more relevant hosts in the pool (and support to mitigate 2F investment instead of just hoping "opponent uses Let Go on a katana" in a non-critical conflict, when you really shouldn't need it to beat such an opponent). And it will no doubt win you games in a flashy memorable way. But unlike Pacifism which can be back-breaking, its risk-reward equation does not feel positive in the current pool.

 

I look forward to being proved wrong when the Worlds Winning Deck has it (humble pie - yum yum!). But I've given reasons why I avoided it in the OP.

[nightcrawlers]

Oh! Some activity in the Dragon thread. Gasp! I'm so used to seeing the Crab thread at the top of the forum that this is a pleasant surprise.

 

In Thrones, the defensive Night's Watch thread dominated the forum (whilst it lasted) and now I see the Crab thread dominating discussion. I'm sure there's a common link there but I just can't seem to put my finger on it...

 

 

I have to cautiously and courteously disagree. To me, Way of the Dragon is the epitome of flashy Win More. You will remember it when it works so well but for most games, it will be there in your hand waiting for the right host to justify its cost. A tempo loss against anyone splashing Dragon and a liability against anyone splashing Scorpion. I'm not saying it's not playable in the future, just not in the current pool because one of my main reasons is the lack of good hosts.

 

I recently completely cut Way of the Dragon.. but, I don't think that's forever.

 

Way of the Dragon will get better with time, there just arnt that many abilities I reaaally need to trigger twice at the moment. As more characters with board changing abilities come out (3+ cost), Way of the Dragon will appreciate in value.

[Hakkor]

 

I have to cautiously and courteously disagree. To me, Way of the Dragon is the epitome of flashy Win More. You will remember it when it works so well but for most games, it will be there in your hand waiting for the right host to justify its cost. A tempo loss against anyone splashing Dragon and a liability against anyone splashing Scorpion. I'm not saying it's not playable in the future, just not in the current pool because one of my main reasons is the lack of good hosts.

 

I'm happy you share the same enthusiasm for the Enlightened Warrior as I do. Everything you said is reasonable, yet I'd like to turn those arguments around a little bit.

 

First, most of your commentaries indicate that any combination of UberVoltroning ™ Dragon characters is complicated to set up, or easy prey for assasination. The latter will be 3 copies tops, IF (a big if) your oppoent draws them, with the high honor cost included. Maybe it's something that could be turned against your opponent.

 

So, to avoid the infamous assasination, it's just a matter of voltroning cost 3+ characters. Stacking katanas on the Ninten adept is exceptionally good, but as a player if you fear an assasination, the solution is easy.

 

Then, of course, there will ALWAYS be a counter for whatever you are up to. But, if that wasn't the case, it'd be a clear symptom of broken combos.

 

Crab spalsh protects your voltroned samurai mech from being discarded, Crane splash immunizes it from most events. I think it's a matter of seing the big picture.

 

Anyway, my own experience after some games with Dragon have tought me that voltroning is very easy to achieve, and particularly recommended to do so. I include 3 mantra of fire and 3 good omen, as well as two copies of kazue (she hits the table every game I draw her). In one of the games, I played Yokuni on turn 2. The mentioned cards kept him alive against void rings, and next turn I started voltroning it with. Next turn, a little more voltroning. He ended up being a huge monster, which could only be killed by Noble Sacrifice.

 

If we consider that each monstrosity we play will remain in play, Dragon will slowly snowball into big fat characters. And you opponent has very limited cards to answer them. Each time he spend cards and resources to bow/send home the Dragon voltroned character, you are getting an economy advantage. He lost what he spent, you keep all your goodies on the character for the next conflict/round.

 

So, in conclusion: voltroning is easier than it looks (play characters, use new earned fate on attachments). The maths about investment aren't always realistic, as everything you play will stay (not like events). Counters should not be percieved as a source of fear and reluctancy to play your cards. Counters are needed in order to keep Dragon from snowballing.

 

And yes, I have been able to use a Ratsuga twice and make Yokuni copy his ability, in order to activate it other two times. That's what a pair of "way of the dragon" do. I pulled it only once, true, but each time I have played, a few fearsome Dragon characters armed to the teeth have risen during the game. I'd say that's not luck, but consistency (of course, I include every copy of the cost 3+ dinasty characters and actively cycle the provinces looking for them).

 

Note: the investigator's ability is max 1 per round, so way of the dragon is no use for him (so sad)

 

Anyway, it's just my personal experience with Dragon, probably conditioned by my playstyle inherited from Conquest.

[sparrowhawk]

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I always appreciate lengthy posts because it shows effort on the part of the poster to share knowledge.

Firstly, I misunderstood the interaction of Way of the Dragon and its reference to "specified period" and the Investigator's "max. 1 per conflict" thinking that extra wording meant the specified period was conflict. It appears that max. has its own meaning relating to the card and Way of the Dragon does not work to extend it. But then you could potentially have Way of the Dragon on a Niten Master and stand it 3 times with 3 Weapons (one then slips off due to restricted) and that uses the word "max." which is why I thought it would be usable with Investigator. It's a shame the RR is not up to the standard of the last few FFG LCG offerings and they haven't adopted a philosophy of elegant simplicity in card text that avoids the archetype of card gamers being rulemongers. Thank you for the extra knowledge on this ruling, very useful (even if seemingly inconsistent).

On Way of the Dragon, anecdotal evidence based on practice always trumps theorycraft assuming it's based on a sufficient sample of observations. It seems you have plentiful evidence that Way of the Dragon works well. This may be local meta based due to lack of attachment control as witnessed by Kazue (who is amazing, able to siphon off own if needed, but too risky until you know their splash). We mustn't be prone to groupthink here and encourage contrary views. So I concede the debate, honourable-san (bows).

Will I be adding it to my build? In the short term, no. Ancient Togashi proverb: "the older the mule, the less likely it is to drink from the pool it is led to, no matter its thirst."

[nightcrawlers]

Sparrowhawk.. if I'm reading you post correctly - I think the key difference between investigator and master is "max" vs "limit".

Unless I'm mistaken; max is the final limit that can never be exceeded, limit gives you the ability to use an action more than once.. so I'm not really sure what happens to niten master with way of the dragon attached. If I'd have to guess.. I'd say nothing, he can trigger it twice (which he already could do) still but not 3 times?

[nightcrawlers]

Rereading.. I am actually starting to think niten master would now ready 3 times a turn like you originally said. Way of the Dragon reads "one additional time" so that would make sense.

 

 

Back to the original argument, I usually find readying niten master once is usually enough, twice rarely. But, three times? Seems unnecessary. I'm not convinced niten master is a good target for way of the dragon. Which, brings me back to my original point.. I think we just need more cards that you really want to trigger twice.

[Hakkor]

On Way of the Dragon, anecdotal evidence based on practice always trumps theorycraft assuming it's based on a sufficient sample of observations. It seems you have plentiful evidence that Way of the Dragon works well. This may be local meta based due to lack of attachment control as witnessed by Kazue (who is amazing, able to siphon off own if needed, but too risky until you know their splash). We mustn't be prone to groupthink here and encourage contrary views. So I concede the debate, honourable-san (bows).
 

 Sorry if I sounded like debating. I just wanted to share my view to encourage people playing it and then telling their own expiriences (which could be terrible ones, and that would emerge into a even mor einteresting topic).

 

Most players say playing high cost attachments is not good because of the card removal. I say my opponent has (if any at all) three copies. He let's go my fine Katana? Here comes Kazue. I played many attachment in rounds 1-2 and my opponent is sticking those let go in hand "just in case"? I get free uses of attachments that could have being discard in the first conflict they entered the board. In any case, only 3 cards (and the urge to draw them) vs.an approximate of 18-20 possible attachment in the Dragon conflic deck. Cards that will stay on the board compared to events that are one use.

 

I have forced myself into the thinking that your opponent playing a card I hate is a good thing. Now he only has 2 copies left. And when he plays the third card of whatsoever, that's ecstasy.