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Crab clan strategy thread


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#21
Vorrt

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Reminder about Kaiu Shuichi and Shrewd Yasuki:

There just needs to be a holding in play.  Not specifically your holding.  I'm not certain how prevalent holdings will be in the 3 core environment, but I think there will be more in play than not.


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#22
phillosmaster

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I've been seeing very few holdings across the table unless it's a Crab mirror match or a Lion match up for Staging Grounds.  Maybe that will change as the meta matures and/or we get more dynasty packs.  It has come up though and I usually have to remind the other player that the card ability is still active.



#23
sparrowhawk

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Borderland Fortifications:
I would like to add, that this is a great way to protect a valueable character on any province. If you fear the province will break , you can
switch to it and save the character from discarding.


Connected to this is a Fortification appearing in the broken province then guaranteeing you have that crucial Holding presence for next turn at least. I also don't think the +2 defence vs break for all your provinces is trivial (Favourable requires support) as it forces the overcommit. Sacrificing it to save a key character you couldnt afford until next turn is just another benefit.

You can also use it to bluff the weak province by moving it in Fate phase. Moving it there - does that mean you want me to attack that province or not? It's mind games potential.

The Unicorn alliance definitely has synergy with Favourable (maybe even 1x Rebuild for late game surprise), especially as a counter to expel effects Rout, Outwit, Strength in Numbers (like Mount in hand) but otherwise Fortification seems like a good idea in other builds.

I don't understand Storehouse as using it can weaken your characters. As for Pyre, yes it's a sacrifice enabler but it's a poor man's Library and will be targeted.

It will be amusing to see how wrong some of us were as we get to grips with the card pool!

#24
phillosmaster

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Consider a round where I am holding onto a Funeral Pyre and I flop another Funeral Pyre, an Imperial Storehouse and a Kaiu Envoy.  Did I just lose the game because of that tempo hit? I feel like these holding choices are very significant as well as the ultimate number of holdings you include in your deck.  The risk of a do nothing round can be very high depending on your configuration. That's why I can't seem to completely dismiss Borderlands Fortification since all by itself it can contribute to stalling out your opponent's attack.  Sure it's just a telegraphed +2 on defense, but that might be enough with what you have on the board currently to stall the breaks and come back next round with a ton of Fate. Especially if your opponents plan was to do things to your characters to win the conflict.  There seems to be very few ways for your opponent to interact with your holdings.

 

When I say "holding heavy" what does that mean to you guys?  To me holding heavy is 5-10 holdings.  More than that I think is a reckless amount of holdings in your dynasty deck right now.  You are just asking to fall into a scenario like the one I outlined above in most of your games.

 

If we are finding that holdings are the way to go is there a way to mitigate the above holding locked scenario?  Would Scorpion or Dragon be ultimately a better splash for a holding heavy deck since we can reach the max conflict characters quite easily.  Scorpion in particular I find interesting if we expect to flop holdings often.  Given an include of 3x Hiruma  Ambushers and 3x Stoic Gunsos we have another 4 slots open.  Would including 3x Adept of Shadows be a better options since we can bounce that character back to hand.  We could I think include 3x Adept of Shadows, 1x Unassuming Yojimbo and then fill out the rest with something like Ambush to round out the influence budget.  Is that at all worth considering?  I realize this is a very different deck than the one we were just discussing.

 

It's always a risk when having these debates so early in the game's life that you'll look really foolish when these threads are reread in the future.  I'm prepared for that :)  That said as a Crab loyalist I want Crab to perform well even if it isn't me piloting the winning deck lists.  So I feel like it's very worth wild to have these stab in the dark debates.



#25
Vorrt

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When I say "holding heavy" what does that mean to you guys?  To me holding heavy is 5-10 holdings. 

 

 

Man, I wouldn't ever consider 10 holdings in a 40 card deck.   25% of my deck dedicated to something I can't put into play during dynasty?  That seems way too high on the holdings count.



#26
phillosmaster

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I agree it is too much.  I run 4 in all my decks right now.  Even then a couple days ago I had a holding carry over from the previous round and flopped two more holdings.  Maybe it's an anomaly, but it still felt pretty damaging to my tempo.  I am uncomfortable going higher than 4 in my dynasty, but am I wrong about that?  Is there a way to play to mitigate the obvious down side?



#27
Vorrt

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I don't think you're wrong there, at least not with the current offerings for holdings.   



#28
JoeFromCincinnati

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I'm short on time at the moment, but I can post the first draft of my deck list that I plan on playing in 3 core. If you have any questions about inclusions, I'd be happy to address them and, ideally, soon I'll have time to read this whole thread and post my thoughts on the Crab as well:

 

+ Provinces

 

1 Manicured Garden

1 Defend the Wall

1 Meditations on the Tao

1 Rally to the Cause

1 Pilgrimage

1 Shiro Nishiyama

1 Keeper of Air

 

- Dynasty

 

# Neutral

2 Keeper Initiate

2 Imperial Storehouse

2 Favorable Ground

 

# Crab

2 Eager Scout

2 Hida Guardian

3 Kaiu Envoy

3 Hiruma Yojimbo

3 Shrewd Yasuki

3 Vanguard Warrior

3 Borderlands Defender

3 Intimidating Hida

1 Borderlands Fortification

3 Steadfast Witch Hunter

3 Kaiu Shuichi

3 Hida Kisada

2 Funeral Pyre

 

- Conflict

 

# Neutral

3 Ornate Fan

3 Assassination

3 Banzai

3 Court Games

2 Charge!

2 Spies at Court

3 Rout

 

# Phoenix (13/13 influence points)

2 Seeker of Knowledge

1 Pacifism

3 Display of Power

 

# Crab

2 Hiruma Ambusher

2 Stoic Gunso

3 Reprieve

3 Watch Commander

3 Way of the Crab

2 The Mountain Does Not Fall

 


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#29
phillosmaster

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Now I'm really interested.  That's not at all the deck I would build.  That's pretty awesome.  Why Display of Power?  Also if you want to contribute to the major points in this thread maybe just give us a run down on why you picked those holdings and what your experience has been playing holdings in Crab.



#30
estyles

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So I haven't played or gotten any cards yet, but some thoughts...

 

I never liked Crab very much in the CCG.  I had some fun with Hida Yakamo Oni, but mostly I didn't like a low honor / high military / defensive playstyle.  However, in the LCG, the Crab strike me as pretty interesting and unique.  Partially because they're the only faction with much incentive to play with Holdings.  And my favorite clan, Mantis, isn't a thing (yet).  And my second clan, Crane... well, they seem kind of boring from what I've seen so far.  I'll probably give them a go, and maybe they'll grow on me, but right now I'm looking more at Crab, Phoenix, and Lion.

 

In general, I'm pretty disappointed about how they implemented Holdings.  I kind of like the idea of them being located in Provinces, but I wish they had just had a Fate cost and attached to the Province without blocking.  Maybe limit to 1 per Province so another Holding draw there would be a dead draw, but at least not blocking the Province completely.  The issue is that it's just such high variance.  If you want a Holding (because they're good, they work well with your deck, or you're playing Kaiu synergy), we're talking about including maybe 4-6 in your deck.  With 4, you have only a 36% chance of getting one first turn, or 61% chance of getting one in the first two turns (assuming 8 card draws).  That's not horrible odds, but pretty tough if you want to rely on them in any way.  Increase that to 6, and you get a 76% chance to draw one in the first two turns, but you've also increased your odds of getting not just 1, but 2 or more Holdings, to 34% - and with them blocking you from getting Characters in those Provinces, that's not good either.

 

That said, it's precisely the riskiness of playing with Holdings that makes Crab a bit more interesting to me - how to get around the seeming limitations and get the most benefit out of them?  Well, I see a few ways to mitigate drawing holdings in your provinces.  Some of them have already been mentioned, but to spell them out:

 

- Play with more Conflict deck characters.   If you need characters and aren't spending fate on your Dynasty cards because you accidentally drew too many Holdings this turn, you should have the fate to play characters from your Conflict deck if you draw them.  I think the max you can play right now are 12.  6 in-clan, and 6 out-of-clan.  And I'm not sure you'd play with a whole lot more than that 12 even if you could.   (Edit: Dang, I missed the deckbuilding restriction that says you can only have 10 characters in your Conflict deck.  That seems awfully arbitrary.  And annoying.)  Both Crane and Unicorn have 1-cost 1-influence Conflict characters.  The Crane's other Conflict character is Political Rival, which I think might be helpful for plugging your Political weakness, but it costs 3 Fate and 2 Influence.  Unicorn's other Conflict character is the 2-cost 1-influence Ide Messenger, which seems perfect - also helps with Political, and has a nice maneuver bonus built in.  With 3 of each Unicorn Conflict character, you're only at 6 influence.  With a Keeper role, you can easily still take 2 Captive Audience and maybe a Favored Mount.  Playing extra Conflict characters also plays well with something like Funeral Pyre - play an Eager Scout with 0 Fate, use him to actually scout (too on-the-nose?) or to escort your stronger character, then sacrifice him at the end of the turn (or earlier if you've got a Berserker that needs motivation) to draw a card, which will hopefully be another character.  (Of course, now that I've rechecked the deckbuilding rules, with only 10 characters allowed in Conflict, you can drop 2 characters to make it 3x Favored Mount, or drop them and the Favored Mount for a 3rd Captive Audience.)

 

- Play Rebuild, which was of course already mentioned.  If you have more than 4 Holdings, you're definitely going to want to be able to discard them even when you don't have another Holding out - the risk of drawing more and not getting Dynasty characters is too great.  If you've got a Rebuild in hand, then you can do this with no fear.

 

- Play bigger characters or put more Fate on your characters.  Rely on Quality over Quantity.  Maybe you only get 1 or 2 characters in your Dynasty draw, but they're beefy and you spend all of your Fate on them, and then (hopefully) get good value out of it.  1 Fate for an extra turn of a 3, 4, or 5 cost character is a pretty good deal.  Unfortunately - this doesn't play especially well with Crab's strategy of sacrifice, nor with what looks like a meta that has plenty of removal available.  I kind of hate cheap removal because it warps the balance between building tall and building wide.  I don't think L5R is too far to that side, as people are saying how tremendously powerful Clan Champions are, but they are also saying how tough a call it is to play 4-costers, much like Conquest.  And with Crab, I'm pretty sure you want a high-low build, so you still need to be able to draw enough Dynasty characters to have a good chance of a high and a low each turn...

 

- Slow play / defense.  This, of course, plays right into Crab's strengths - basically if you can defend your provinces, you can last long enough to draw into more Dynasty characters, and since you probably saved Fate from that turn you drew 2 or 3 Holdings, you should be able to afford them.

 

 

Anyway, I'm currently planning to build with 6 Holdings.  I think it's at least borderline reasonable to consider 8 or even 9 Holdings in a deck that goes all out trying to build around them, but I'm going to start with 6 and see how it goes.

 

Any of that make sense?  


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#31
sparrowhawk

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@phillosmaster

 

Display of Power to "win" Air in defence, claim 1 fate back and bring back Keeper(s). So you pay net 1F and they lose 1H (as Display requires unopposed) as well as the tempo of their attack to break that province that would be too resource intensive to defend anyway. Ditto Seeker of Knowledge to suddenly surprise switch to Air in attack (or use Air twice). It's very clever.

 

I think our commitment to Dishonour pressure with Levy x3 is too much opportunity cost with 2 respected players both saying Assassination and Court Games needs to be at x3. Where I do disagree with Joe is...

 

Spies at Court

 

Cost:

1 card

Opportunity cost of inclusion in deck, drawing it instead of a better card

Commitment to win Political (or wait for opportunistic play, clogging hand)

Dishonour = 0 future conflict modifier in Crab mostly but = -1 card bid lagged

Dishonour can also make you vulnerable (I Can Swim, Noble Sacrifice etc)

 

Benefit:

up to 2 random cards discarded = potential disruption of plans (best played already?)

 

So to me, you are paying 2 cards and opportunity cost for 2 cards with slight card flow advantage due to the honour converts to cards lag. Logically, the cost-benefit trade-off does not merit its inclusion.

 

7 Holdings

 

Now admittedly he is playing 8 cards that reference Holdings but this seems excessive using HYPGEOMDIST in Excel. And 2 of them are Pyres too when he has just 2 Gunsos that benefit from a sacrifice enabler. I don't get why people like Pyres so much when they will just get targeted and then you are better off with Storehouse.

 

High Cost Curve

 

This seems anti-intuitive to the pyramid cost curve of most card games. Now Joe is a very good Nights Watch player in Thrones so he probably knows this is the correct "shape" from his GenCon games etc. It's just not what I expected. Especially in the clan that needs width to support Way of the Crab x3 (yet he plays Charge at x2). It doesn't play to the weenie pump stronghold but makes sense with 7 Holdings (you don't want 2 weenies + 2 holdings showing), although this seems to invite high variance province flops.

 

 

I absolutely LOVE the cleverness of the Phoenix splash (but worry that he may be unable to break Kuroi Mori at +6 in Political. though he does have Rout x3). But I still think the Unicorn build is more optimal, mainly because of what you cleverly highlighted with moving the Yojimbo.

 

There are many aspects of Joe's build I will be assimilating though (such as Assassination x3, Court Games x3 and Fortifications x1 - you just want to see 1 ever). Shamelessly stealing the best bits I have learnt so far from yourself, Hida Honk and now Joe, my current iteration stands at:-

 

 

Crab (Unicorn) Keeper of Air

 

Dynasty (40)

Borderlands Defender × 3

Eager Scout × 3

Hida Guardian × 3

Hida Kisada × 3

Hiruma Yōjimbō × 3

Intimidating Hida × 3

Kaiu Envoy × 3

Keeper Initiate × 3

Miya Mystic × 3

Shrewd Yasuki × 3

Vanguard Warrior × 3

Vengeful Berserker × 3

Borderlands Fortifications × 1

Favorable Ground × 3

 

Conflict (40)

Favored Mount × 3

Ornate Fan × 3

Reprieve × 3

Watch Commander × 3

Hiruma Ambusher × 3

Stoic Gunsō × 3

Assassination × 3

Banzai! × 3

Captive Audience × 3

Charge! × 3

Court Games × 3

Rout × 1

The Mountain Does Not Fall × 3

Way of the Crab × 3

 

Misc (6)

Defend the Wall × 1

Manicured Garden × 1

Meditations on the Tao × 1

Pilgrimage × 1

Rally to the Cause × 1

Shiro Nishiyama × 1

 

 

It's the mobile defence and uncommitted threat in attack concept, leveraging your Yojimbo insight but also defence against expel effects (Outwit, Rout, Strength in Numbers etc) where you return bolstered +1M for equal cost 1 with future usage too (as usually the good character is expelled). Spyglass does not really work outside of Unicorn from my initial evaluation (it needs to combo with Mountain for profit and draw more cards have opportunity cost as you can lose with lots of cards in hand) and I prefer focused strategies to versatile 1-of card builds.

 

 

Joe's Phoenix Air Ring approach is very clever though and made me think of Phoenix with Scorpion who has Seeker of Air.

 

One solution to Kuroi Mori may be Crane with 3x Political Rival and 3x Kiau Siuchi to just win in Political attack. It also allows Crab to pressure Wins with single unit forays that prompt single defence (because Intimidating Hida taunt attacks) for Admit Defeat possible surprise break (another reason to avoid High Cost Curve builds). So 3x Political Rival, 3x Admit Defeat and 3x Kiau Siuchi to have Covert Political. That sounds promising...


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#32
JoeFromCincinnati

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I have noticed that I play Crab very differently from most people I talk to. Maybe that's why I got Hatamoto at Gencon (Humble Brag, go!). But here are my opinions on some of the things discussed in this thread.

 

In regards to holdings:

 

I played the maximum number of holdings at Gencon (6) and was very happy even in a 30 card deck. All their abilities are so impactful that it is very nice to have them around. Going up to 7 in a 40 card deck shouldn't be an issue at all. There are so many cards that trigger off of holdings (including one of the consistently best card draw engines in the game, Shrewd Yasuki) that you would like to have one at all times.

 

It does mean you need to build a little taller, hence the high cost curve of the deck but, with Vanguard Warrior and Reprieve you could always buy them at cost (zero fate on them) and keep them around for a turn or 2 longer pretty easily. Plus, Charge reduces their cost considerably as well. If you're wanting for consistent sacrifice targets, you have enough fate to purchase a low character with 0 fate once per turn easy. Plus, the keeper monks are just insanely strong for Crab.

 

Win an Air conflict, bring in a monk or 2 (once you get them, they never leave, since they can come from the discard pile), win a conflict or win the favor with him (2 glory is a ton in regards to the favor) and then, in the fate phase, sacrifice them for card draw. Repeat. Endless effective cheap characters.

 

One thing I noticed at Gencon was so many people bought their board state wide. Like a 3 coster with 1 fate and then 1 or 2 low characters with zero fate.

 

Horrible strategy, in my opinion. You are now forced to either protect the Ring of Void, or risk losing your entire board. I'd rather purchase a 4 coster with 2 fate and a 1 coster and pass for the additional fate. That way, your opponent, if first player, will probably not do Ring of Void (because it wouldn't remove a character at the end of the turn), allowing you to grab it and clear their board.

 

This works doubly well with Way of the Crab, if they do stack fate on one big character and then have a 1 fate character on the board with 1 fate, you can remove that character's fate to expose their big character to Way of the Crab during the fate phase. With Kaiu Envoy and 1 fate on him, he literally pays for the Way of the Crab in its entirety (1 fate, 1 card) during the fate phase. Eager Scout is equally potent. I've Reprieved an Eager Scout before so they'd last until the Fate phase action window so that I could Way of the Crab my opponent's last remaining character (or one of two 3+ coster characters).

 

Sure, you can play around Way of the Crab, but that just means you're putting excess fate on your 1 or 2 costers to keep your big guys protected.

 

And I can just assassinate them and make you waste even more fate than if you had just left it open for me in the first place. And then you STILL lose your big guy in the fate phase to WotC.

 

If I'm getting a 3 cost character with Way of the Crab, that's just insane value. So, unless your opponent is somehow keeping 2 low cost characters through to the fate phase in addition to a big character, they'll nearly always be exposed to the Assassination + WotC combo. And if they're doing that, you're obviously not prioritizing the Void Ring enough, which is the best ring in the game by a wide margin.

 

Way of the Crab, in my opinion, is by far the strongest Way of card in the game because of the endless pressure it puts on your opponent. 

 

 

 

Regarding Spies at Court.

 

Crab is very good at dishonor. From compelling your opponent to attack or lose honor with the Intimidating Hida to Watch Commanders removing limitless honor from your opponent based on how many cards they play (including any card that removes or takes Watch Commander, since it reacts to the card being played, which occurs before the effect of said card). In addition, their ample out of bid card draw allows them to bid 1 or 2 most turns and not fall too far behind in card advantage.

 

The one card in Crab I am not fond of is Levy. At best, it's a recycle card for honor. You play 1 card. You take one honor. The exact equivalent of just bidding 1 lower on your dial. Now, if you're bidding 1 each round, this does effectively lower your bid to 0 to further the dishonor pressure, but a card that has no impact on the board state and no impact on winning conflicts, I find it very hard to justify running. It could potentially get you a fate but, if you're following the strategy of mostly high quality characters and 1 chud per turn, you should be passing first most games and collecting additional fate. At Gencon, in 12 rounds, I missed the additional fate maybe 5 times total.

 

So, if Levy is a bad dishonor card, what do you play instead? That's where Spies at Court comes in. Card removal from hand is the equivalent of honor loss. If I remove 2 cards from my opponent's hand, it means, to get back to their previous hand state, they must bid 2 additional honor throughout the course of the game, not counting out of bid card draw.

 

When paired with Ring of Earth, that's 3 cards out of their hand. Unless they were just going bid crazy (in which case they are wasting their honor and inching you closer to victory anyway), this will leave them with very few options later in the game. And fewer options later in the game means you can enter conflicts with confidence, as they will have fewer actions to do.

 

In addition, it actively removes cards from your opponent's hand which hampers their conflict effectiveness in real time.

 

Yes, dishonoring your character isn't great, but if one clan can handle it, it's Crab. They will lose an honor when that character leaves, but their stats will likely remain relatively unaffected, having so many 0 and 1 glory characters. It exposes your characters to things like I can Swim but if they're playing I can Swim, that means they're bidding higher than you and further dishonoring themselves. And if you're bidding conservatively, you likely have the honor to lose. That's a win to me.

 

You may have some concerns about winning a political conflict, but I've never had any issue with it. That's what the assassinations and Way of the Crabs are for, thinning your opponent's board such that they are not able to defend and win political conflicts unless they're mortgaging their ability to win on offense. If they're winning on your political attacks, that means they dedicated work towards winning on defense that now you don't have to worry about attacking you.

 

 

Regarding Display of Power:

 

I mean, it's probably the best event in the game, next to maybe Way of the Crab. You have a card that not only deprives your opponent of the ring that they clearly wanted (because they declared it, after all), but it also turns it against them. They wanted to remove a fate from your Kisada? Well, now you're actually removing a fate from your Toturi instead. You wanted to honor your Serene Warrior to a 7/6? Well, now he's a -1/-2. They want to discard a card from your hand and draw a card? Well now you're drawing a card and they're discarding (that's a card advantage delta of 3 cards!)

 

And if they try to claim Ring of Air to deny you your monks, well you now get them anyway. And you just took an honor from them (replacing the honor you lose for unopposed) rather than them gaining 2 honor. A 3 honor loss for them, effectively. If you're pressuring their honor as much as you are capable of doing, that's a major (possibly game winning) swing.

 

The Seeker of Knowledge even allows you to get two chances at the rings of Air in one round, doubling the chance to trigger your monks.

 

In addition, most characters are ~3 to 4 strength or so. Most provinces at 4 strength. But if you have a Borderlands Fortifications out, or if they're attacking one of your non-pyre holdings, you have a higher percentage chance of not losing that province despite it being unopposed. Or, at the very least, they're spending cards out of their hand to break the province and then you still get their ring! More hand control for the win!

 

To further expand on the value of holdings, when you're building high (and I want to emphasize, I'm speaking relatively. I still buy plenty of 1s and 2s and 0s to help the sacrifice theme), Favorable Grounds is an amazing card. You can do a chump conflict with an eager scout. If they don't defend, you can move in Kisada. Or, you can attack with 2 or maybe even 3 characters. This will make them only chump block. Then you can bring one of your characters back home to defend, getting an easy province without hurting your conflict readiness as much as your opponent was anticipating.

 

I even had a game winning play at Gencon where I put a Watch Commander on my Intimidating Hida and attacked. He only had 4 honor, so he didn't want to use any cards to try and deflect the conflict, so he chump blocked and let me take the province. Then he attacked. I defended with enough to save the province and then my first action? Favorable Ground the bowed Hida into the conflict (yes, legal play. Character doesn't have to be ready to be moved! :D). He now could STILL not use any cards from hand. He lost that conflict too. It was a Defend the Wall conflict and I was able to trigger the ring to dishonor one of his characters who left at the end of the round and won me the game.

 

Holdings act as characters and impact abilities that you don't have to buy. And if you're purchasing characters correctly and defending them (I.E. buy with 2 fate, not 1, protect against the ring of the void, use your Reprieves and Vanguard Warriors to keep guys around longer than your opponent wants them to be), you'll welcome the holdings for the value they provide. If you're playing the deck well, you should nearly always have superior board state entering the dynasty phase because of your excellent character removal.

 

 

I wish I had a TL;DR for this post...But I don't. It's a big information dump :).

 

For an in game example of these practices at work, you can go watch my round 4 game at Gencon here where a lot of these strategies are employed pretty well, if I do say so myself.

 

https://www.twitch.t...908?t=07h06m23s

 

Relevant time stamp 7 hours 6 minutes.

 

I wasn't playing Phoenix splash at the time because 1 display was not consistent enough to justify in 1 core, but the holdings, Spies, Way of the crab and building tall stuff are in there haha.


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#33
estyles

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Had to modify my last post because I found the deckbuilding restriction that says you can only play 10 characters in your Conflict deck.  Man, that's annoying, and really hurts the potential of playing a Holding-heavy deck.  The deckbuilding rules in this game are so extremely restrictive, which hurts all the more when the L5R CCG basically had wide-open deckbuilding - not even clan restrictions, in general.  I wish they at least would have made it 12 characters max in conflict deck, so it's an even multiple of 3x and also is the max that would be possible with the current set anyway.


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#34
HidaHonk

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My current deck.
 
Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)
 
Total Influence: (12/13)
 
Stronghold:  
1x Shiro Nishiyama (Core Set #1)
 
Role:  
1x Keeper of Air (Core Set #214A)
 
Province: (5)  
Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  
1x Defend the Wall (Core Set #8)
1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)
1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)
1x Rally to the Cause (Core Set #23)
1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)
 
Character [Dynasty]: (34)  
3x Borderlands Defender (Core Set #31)
3x Eager Scout (Core Set #25)
3x Hida Guardian (Core Set #26)
3x Hida Kisada (Core Set #37)
3x Hiruma Yōjimbō (Core Set #28)
3x Intimidating Hida (Core Set #32)
3x Kaiu Envoy (Core Set #27)
3x Kaiu Shuichi (Core Set #36)
2x Seppun Guardsman (Core Set #123)
3x Steadfast Witch Hunter (Core Set #35)
3x Vanguard Warrior (Core Set #30)
2x Vengeful Berserker (Core Set #33)
 
Holding: (6)  
2x Favorable Ground (Core Set #128)
2x Funeral Pyre (Core Set #39)
2x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)
 
Character [Conflict]: (3/10)  
3x Stoic Gunsō (Core Set #131)
 
Attachment: (15)  
3x Favored Mount (Core Set #192)
3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)
3x Reprieve (Core Set #132)
3x Watch Commander (Core Set #133)
 
Event: (22)  
3x Assassination (Core Set #203)
3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
3x Captive Audience (Core Set #196)
3x Charge! (Core Set #210)
2x Good Omen (Core Set #208)
2x Rout (Core Set #213)
3x The Mountain Does Not Fall (Core Set #138)
3x Way of the Crab (Core Set #137)
 
 
Seppun Guardsmen are tested for the Yasuki. Not keen on both of them. I never have the money for Hiruma Defender so I prefer to play only the Gunso. 

  • JoeFromCincinnati likes this

#35
phillosmaster

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I agree estyles.  If we didn't have the conflict character restriction then playing holding heavy would be a lot easier.

 

Thanks for the write up Joe.  That's what I was looking for considering it is exactly not how I was playing the faction and I suspected I was playing them suboptimally.  I just can't seem to break away form my current train of thought for Crab, which is why I started this thread to get all my thoughts out there and see if people could chip away at them.


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#36
Vorrt

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HatamoJoefromCinncinati, 

 

 

How do you rate our new holding?



#37
JoeFromCincinnati

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HatamoJoefromCinncinati, 

 

 

How do you rate our new holding?

 

Attachment control is always welcome, especially if it means I don't need to play any of those horrid Miya Mystics.

 

The cost of 1 fate to use is reasonable, gives a bonus province strength which is always nice and it potentially takes the attachment, rather than just removing it.

 

Not a huge fan of the limit 1 per deck though, nor of the giving a fate to your opponent though. 

 

I would say it'll be played in nearly every Crab deck for a long time, especially since it only takes up 1 slot in the deck.



#38
Epicurus

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I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on running Levy. If you increase your bidding a little bit after playing it, it effectively becomes a deck-thinning card at the cost of some tempo, but I notice it's not in a lot of lists here.

 

I've been running it as a 3x in my decks so far as a way of effectively running 37 conflict cards, though of course the effect is subtle so it's hard to tell how it's "working".


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#39
phillosmaster

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I included Levy in my posted deck, but I can see excluding it.  I think it's real power comes from being a finisher card since there are very few ways that I can think of where the opponent can actually prevent the honor loss if they have 0 fate.  So now the opponent can't go below 4 honor which means they want to be way more conservative with their honor and maybe fight for Air (which would give us currently a lot of benefit).  That said just the existence of the card gives you that benefit.  There are other ways to apply honor pressure, and if I'm bidding low and getting cards in other ways like claiming Earth or getting draw out of card effects I don't think I really need the honor buffer for bidding.  So I'm leaning toward the idea that Levy is maybe not that great for Crab right now and am considering taking it out.  I think it makes a lot of sense for Scorpion to make sure they don't dishonor themselves to death.

 

On the topic of holdings I think it's a excellent heuristic to examine a card based on how it stacks up versus a character that might flop.  If it offers as much utility as a character or more utility than a character you could slot in then maybe it is worth it.  Also I can see how being more top heavy in your cost curve and stacking a higher amount of fate on characters can make it less frustrating when you flop multiple holdings per turn.  What I'm worried about with Karada District is the same issue I keep coming back to, which is if I can't find a use for that card this turn was it worth it to include the card?  Right now I think it is easy to slot.  It's effectively better than using a Miya Mytic on defense. So I'll slot it right in and replace a Mystic.  It costs the same, offers the same 1 skill on defense and lets me take control of the attachment rather than just discard it.  That's pretty great.  Of course unfortunately I can't move Karada District around so it might end up on a broken province thus not doing anything if I can no find eligible targets.  The fact that it's a 1x include in a deck makes me wonder again if Rebuild will become a card that makes the cut as time goes on.  If I include 7 holdings and 1 or 2 Rebuilds or so in my deck I don't feel like it will ever be a dead card for the whole game.  If I can recur stuff like Favored Ground and Karada District those are nice things to pull out and surprise my opponent rather than sit there in a province and telegraph my options.



#40
estyles

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I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on running Levy. If you increase your bidding a little bit after playing it, it effectively becomes a deck-thinning card at the cost of some tempo, but I notice it's not in a lot of lists here.

 

I've been running it as a 3x in my decks so far as a way of effectively running 37 conflict cards, though of course the effect is subtle so it's hard to tell how it's "working".

 

I'm one that leans toward including it.  At worst, it lets you play an effectively 37-card deck.  At best, it can finish a dishonor victory, or at least gain you Fate by exerting Honor pressure.   In my opinion, any card that "at worst" thins your deck is worth including, though it might depend on future card releases.