30 replies to this topic

[Asklepios]

I guess the corporate way to view it would be to judge increased sales of that sort vs potential loss of sales from the model, and I suspect it's a no-brainer to make neutral card scarcity continue to be a thing.

 

Unless, of course, we the buying public make a lot of noise about how it's a bad thing, and that generates enough momentum to shift the equation.

[Asklepios]

Promotion and Void Pirate - what are these Core Set Conquest cards you mention? Were they played the entirety of the game's life in 95% of decks? If they were, surely the same (otherwise revered) designer is not going to make the same mistake again?

Ubiquity = homogeneity = antithesis of customisation.

 

I'm not sure it's a mistake if it's an intentional design decision that drives sales.

 

Anyway, in the early reviews of the neutral cards, the playerbase has recognised that a lot of the neutral cards are easy 5/5 includes. That may change as time goes on (and indeed, a short time before Conquest ended, we started seeing a large proportion of valid decks where leaving out these core cards was clearly a good decision), but my expectation is that for at least a dozen packs we'll be thinking "really wish I had more Fine Katanas for deckbuilding...". I mean, 0 fate for +2 military (restricted) is a good thing in any deck, and assuming we don't see horrendous power creep or a metashift making all attachments a liability, it will remain so for a long time. Same was true for Promotion in Conquest, which was 0 resources for +2 command icons (limited). 

[Atrus]

Yes, I agree, the Neutral Conflict cards in the core are so good. This is why I hope they don't give us much more neutrals in the cycles/deluxes.

 

In conquest Promotion and Pirate/Trader were very good, but far from autoinclude as the game evolved, but the good thing was that they give us very little neutrals beyond the Core (Caius Wroth was very good, and STC Fragment/Backlash).

 

I prefer that they release almost all cards in the entire cycle (120c) as Clan Cards, and maybe only 1-2 Neutral cards.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

On the other hand, Conquest had a flavor thing where neutrals were hard to justify. There's a lot more commonality of culture and hierarchy between even Crab and Crane than between Space Marines and Orks or Eldar.

[Atrus]

They could had released cards like "Ambush", "Counter attack", "Guerrilla Tactics", "Tactical blow", "Experimental weapon" or a lot of things fluffy neutral though.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

They could had released cards like "Ambush", "Counter attack", "Guerrilla Tactics", "Tactical blow", "Experimental weapon" or a lot of things fluffy neutral though.

 

None of those are exactly flavorful, though, and while low-flavor cards do make it into LCGs (see: Promotion), they are fairly rare. Rogue Trader and Void Pirate were neutrals that evoked the 40k flavor fairly well, as did Inquisitor Caius Wroth. Similarly, Fine Katana and Ornate Fan are simple, but not bland, while cards like Court Games, Spies at Court, Banzai! and similar are all really interesting neutrals from the perspective of what they say about Rokugan.

[Asklepios]

For sure, there was and is lots of potential for flavourful neutral cards in both games. In Conquest, for example, there was no particular reason save gameplay balance that cards like Ammo Depot, Calculated Strike, Holding Cell or Homing Beacon to not be neutral, and logically in Caius Wroth could be neutral, so too could be an Interrogator Acolyte.

 

In Five Rings, there's lots of potential for neutral concepts that cross court boundaries as well: concepts of seppuku, obedience to the Daimyo, hospitality, tea ceremonies, calligraphy - all these things are universal.

 

But I agree with Atrus - the fewer neutral cards we see, the happier I'll be. On the one hand there's a sense of value in a card that you can use in many decks, but for me personally, that's greatly outweighed by the annoyance of not being able to have more than a couple of game-ready decks without moving cards from one to the other.

 

Another annoyance here is the Provinces, of course, which also are going to overlap a lot, a bit like Plot Cards in AGOT often being needed for more than one deck.

 

Hoping that like in AGOT plot cards, the number of options for Provinces will increase rapidly, decreasing the need for overlap.

[Hakkor]

The current neutral attachments and events are a must, that's why they look so good. Many decks would have a hard time getting consistency without them. So there's no need at all to release more and more neutrals, unless new mechanics are released in future packs.

 

As many of you already mentioned, I believe there will be some Conquest-ish evolution in the card pool that will make neutrals less relevant (yet still good). Through cycles, every faction will be getting new cards, and I'm sure some of those will be equivalent versions of some neutrals that add extra synergy with the clan. The clearest examples are the ancestral weapons. If every clan start getting their respective relics, maybe the 3x autoinclude of fine katanas and ornate fans will decrease. Even if it seems improbable, we must remember that as the card pool increases, keeping the conflict card count at 40 and balanced will become more and more difficult.

 

Does anybody remember the Freebooter Kaptain? It was an initially very strong card that was left aside because he lacked the synergy other cards of the same cost offered.

[Caldera]

I note that the spoiled role-specific cards for Crane and Lion are only 1 influence cost each, so while they may not always be usable in their own clans' decks (depending on the official role held by that clan at any given time), they are easily splashable by clans who do hold the relevant role. I could see Disdainful remark fitting nicely into a defensively-minded Phoenix or Dragon deck.....as long as they hold the Keeper role...

[Cambeul]

I remember in Old5R when the Strategy Cards (Conflict Cards) were more Keyword Dependent: Target your Monk, Shugenja, Berserker, Courtier, Scout, etc...

 

I thought this was great as decks were mostly built around a theme, my Crab Scouts vs. your Crane Magistrates, and even at times two Shugenja decks from different Clans would look different as well.

 

But it sucked for Draft format as if you got a strategy without a personality to play the card it was dead in your hand or deck.

 

Then they started to make cards more homogenized where anyone could play, and then maybe there was a Keyword Trigger as well. Do X, but if Y, then do Z. This was great for Draft, but I feel it sort of sucked for the environment as it did not matter if you played against a Shugenja, Scout, Courtier, Berserker deck or not as about 75% of the cards in all decks were essentially the same. I felt that this made the environment bland and boring.

 

So this new L5R I like where strategies are tied to the Clans, and that you can only import so many of certain cards into other Clans.

Going forward I actually like the idea of not seeing to many more neutral cards, and let them focus more on Clan themes.

[Asklepios]

Indeed, and not just clan themes, but also family themes.

 

A deck built around Kakita duellists should feel very different to one based around Doji magistrates. The cards are already looking to show this, but I look forward to the day when I can play my preferred Crane clan, but focus purely on excellence at Iajitsu and perfect form, rather than playing silly buggers at court...