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These are auto-includes, right now, aren't they?


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31 replies to this topic

#1
Asklepios

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Your deck contains:
 
 
...doesn't it?
 
If not, why not?


#2
JoeFromCincinnati

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I would add 3x Court Games to the list.

 

That said, I agree that these are generally accepted to be auto includes in most decks in the core set.

 

It's mostly due to lack of in clan options.

 

When I look at the Crab clan cards, such as Rebuild, Levy, Jade Tetsubo and, to an extent, Hiruma Ambusher, the first thought I have is "These cards aren't as good as generic free +2 modifiers and free honor/dishonor manipulating cards."

 

Given the choice between cards that are occasionally useful (Like Levy and Rebuild) compared to cards that are always going to be useful (like Ornate Fans and Court Games), it's going to be tough trying to justify including the former over the latter, unless your deck is just...obsessed with taking either honor or fate (whichever is more convenient for your opponent.)

 

Once the clans get stronger cards that are worth running, or once the clans start forming cohesive and prevalent themes that will require specific cards that are otherwise situational, I do think many of these auto includes will become merely "strong generic options."


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#3
nightcrawlers

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I would add court games and remove assassinate.

I don't think every deck can run assassinate.
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#4
Ignithas

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I don't think that every clan should Play 3*Assasinate, but I play it at least once in every deck I build.



#5
estyles

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Yes to Court Games, no to Assassination.

 

First off, I find this kind of design to be lazy and disappointing.  I like when neutral cards are are included if they synergize with your deck or shore up weaknesses.  I hate when they are ubiquitous and generic.  I started off trying to build decks with the assumption that they didn't repeat the "mistakes" of Conquest (I put "mistakes" in quotes, because even though I hate it and consider it a mistake, I'm guessing the designers disagree, which is why they did the same thing in L5R).  And I still will probably leave some of these auto-includes out of my secondary and experimental decks, because I want to have 4 or 5 decks built, and while I'll tolerate some degree of swapping between decks, I'd rather not have to do it constantly.

 

As far as Assassination- it's certainly meta-warping in the extreme.  Another thing that I hate is cheap removal, and Assassination is certainly that.  On the other hand, thank the kami they put a cap on targeting.  The biggest problem I have with cheap removal is that it screws with the top end of the cost curve - any expensive card then needs to have protection from removal or be so strong that it's a coin flip (if you don't remove him fast enough, I win; if you do, I lose) or else it's unplayable.  One thing they are so far getting right in L5R is that it's hard to remove expensive characters.  I Can Swim is expensive, and has 2 requirements, and is 100% preventable if you want (I actually think its existence is meant more to bait your opponent into bidding high than anything else, but that's another topic).    So, I digress, but at least Assassination isn't ridiculous.  But just by its existence, it will mostly keep people from putting much Fate on cheap characters. 

 

That said, it costs 2.5 units to play (1 card + 3 honor).  There's still some debate over whether 1 Fate = 1 card, but I think the game was somewhat designed with that equality in mind.  The values are at least close, but Fate acceleration is rare in the game right now.  So 2.5 units will never be a strict efficiency gain against a character that costs 2 or less unless that character has Fate on them.  And the existence of Assassination will strongly discourage placing Fate on small characters.  (On the other hand, 2 cost characters probably aren't worth their cost in general unless they get an extra Fate, which puts them in an awkward position right now...)  Even without being an efficiency gain, it can still be great to kill a character whenever you need to, so it's certainly still powerful, and will often hit a 2 Fate character with 1 Fate on him or a character with attachments.  But the honor loss can still be a problem if it pushes you towards a dishonor loss or prevents you from getting an honor win.  I think a lot of the dishonor losses that happen are because someone played an Assassination and then several turns later, they couldn't stay afloat.  You can probably afford to play 1 in most games, but if you draw all 3, I doubt many decks can afford to play them all.

 

Currently, I am avoiding it in Unicorn because they start with only 10 honor (I feel Crab can handle it with Levy and low bidding, and Scorpion don't mind losing a little honor).  And I am avoiding it in Lion because they have a chance to win by honor.  And right now it's not in my Dragon because I want as heavy an attachment focus as possible and want to draw a lot of cards.


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#6
IMABUNNEH

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I don't think 3x each of the attachments are necessarily auto include. Assassinate is definitely a 2x in basically all my decks, but not 3x in all of them.

 

Court Games is to Pol what Banzai is to Mil - unrestricted action that you need to be playing, if for no other reason than to "counter" your opponent playing it.


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#7
Asklepios

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Good point on Court Games, not sure why I left it off the list when I've not left it off any decks...



#8
nightcrawlers

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I don't think 3x each of the attachments are necessarily auto include.


Straight up blasphemy

#9
Atrus

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All are good, but not autoinclude. I built decks with Katanas but without Ornate Fans and viceversa. But those attachments are the closest thing to autoinclude. I don't play Banzai in my Lion deck, Way of the Lion fills that slot, and without Honor loss. I think my friend's Scorpion deck also plays without Banzai.

 

I often play without assassinate. Sometimes x1 or x2. The Honor loss is huge against experienced players and more often than you think can bring you to a Dishonor defeat.

 

Court Games and Good Omen are also to be considered as Autoinclude. All great cards.



#10
JoeFromCincinnati

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I don't consider Good Omen to be autoinclude at all. It becomes a virtually useless card if bids devolve into 1 to 1, which isn't uncommon at all. It has its applications, but cards that can conditionally become dead cards is a risky play, especially in a game where I'm already running out of space for the other amazing cards at my disposal :).


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#11
Kingsley

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I'm running 2x Assassination with some decks, but I think not running it at all is a big mistake.


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#12
Hakkor

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Assassination is also a very conditional card (in regards of Good Omen). I had games with my opponent not playing a single cost 2 character. And cost 1 characters where so weak and lacking fate that losing a card and 3 honor wasn't worth it. So the 2 assassinations I included were dead cards in my hand.

 

There have been many games where one of the players ended with 3-4 honor without ever playing an assasination. The honor lose is more important than it may look.

 

Court games is a staple in my Crane and Scorpion, but has no room in Dragon or Lion.

 

I think, even those cards are close to autoinclude thanks to it's ease of use and cost 0, they will become much harder to fit in decks once the first cycle is out. Just my 2 cents there.



#13
IFightDragons

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Out of the core set, I think nearly every deck will start with a core like this:

2-3x Assassinate
3x Banzai!
3x Court Games
2-3x Fine Katana
2-3x Ornate Fan

With a limited pool of clan conflict cards to pick from (~10 per clan = 30 potential includes) and influence generally getting 4-6 cards, there's not a lot of options compared to the general versatility of these neutral cards right now. Every deck wants the buffs for both conflicts because both conflicts happen every game, and assassinate is almost always a great card because dynasty decks are usually at least 30% 2 cost or less. As the card pool opens up, I think we'll see the neutral attachments start getting replaced first, then maybe some of the neutral events; but in the core set they are simply above the power level of most of the situational/combo cards. 


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#14
Silme

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Agreed ! total autoinclude  :

 

3 banzai

2-3 court games

2-3 fire katana

2-3 ornate fan

 

That's all...

 

sure you see charge and assassination in x2 at least in lot of decks but are no autoinclude.

 

good omen is not at all by a large margin... very few decks use it regurlarly and efficiently.


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#15
nightcrawlers

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I think dragon and maybe Phoenix are the only decks that really consider running good omen

#16
Silme

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i would have say crane and lion are the prime and immediate users of this card (but even in those clans, no autoinclude at all !) but dragon and phoenix can ! for sure totally.



#17
Asklepios

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All are good, but not autoinclude. I built decks with Katanas but without Ornate Fans and viceversa. But those attachments are the closest thing to autoinclude. I don't play Banzai in my Lion deck, Way of the Lion fills that slot, and without Honor loss. I think my friend's Scorpion deck also plays without Banzai.

 

I often play without assassinate. Sometimes x1 or x2. The Honor loss is huge against experienced players and more often than you think can bring you to a Dishonor defeat.

 

Court Games and Good Omen are also to be considered as Autoinclude. All great cards.

 

My initial instinct as well was that Way of the Lion was superior to Banzai. After all, it's an in-clan card, why wouldn't it be?

 

Actually though, I'm now convinced Banzai is a better card than Way of the Lion.

 

Comparison as follows:

 

Same:

Both cards can't be self-stacked. Banzai because of explicit text, and Way of the Lion because doubling is of base skill, not of modified skill, so the second play would be the same effect.

Both cards cost 0 fate and are events.

 

Way of the Lion better:

At base military 3, WotLion can give +1 over Banzai at the same cost, or -1 to Banzai if the honour cost is paid.

At base military 4, WotLion gives same benefit as Banzai, but at less cost.

At base military 5+, WotLion gives greater benefit.

 

Banzai better:

At base military 1 Banzai is superior.

At base military 2, Banzai can be equivalent, or has the option of 1 honour cost for a stronger effect.

At base military 3, Banzai can be inferior, or have the option of 1 honour cost for a stronger effect.

So basically at base military 1 or 2, Banzai is superior, at base 3, it's about even.

However, Banzai is not limited to lion characters, so can be used on your neutrals and your out of clan splashed in conflict characters.

Banzai can be used on two different characters, which spreads your risk for removal.

If played on a single character, WotLion is optimal on your biggest base value, which puts all your eggs in one basket, which makes control/removal of your combat value easier, whereas Banzai can be applied to your lower value characters, which spreads your risk.

And finally, Lion decks at present benefit from swarms of cheap characters, most of which are in the 0-3 military strength range.

 

So basically, for Lion decks at present, Banzai > Way of the Lion.

 

Good argument for running both of course, but if you're cutting to make room for different function cards, I'd cut WotLion before Banzai.


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#18
sparrowhawk

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I shall always fondly remember your "challenging orthodoxy" series of threads in Conquest, Asklepios. You are a one-man anti-groupthink rebel thinker.

This is great analysis in isolation. The key insight for me was Way of the Lion does not stack unlike Vengeful Berserker (which is also post +/-). So thank you for that clarification.

However cards don't exist in a vacuum.

Lion have at base 3+ MIL:
Matsu Berserker
Lion's Pride Brawler (key pump)
Matsu Beiona
Honoured General
Akodo Toturi
The latter 3 are often cheated in with Charge then For Greater Glory or Stand Your Ground (also Spiritcaller and Ikoma Eji recursion).

Toturi doubled especially is needed late game to break Entrenched Position that inevitably gets put in the Hold (or Night Raid if opposing Clan plays another Earth province). As I have found out with my flawed Lion early build (that I would love to delete - Lion swarm is not the way, folks).

But 3 doubled is not as good as +4, you say?

Ah, but Lion also have:
Obstinate Recruit
Venerable Historian
Steadfast Samurai
And these cards reference relative Honour. So that 1H cost has greater relevance in Lion.

You can also 2x Way of Lion 2 different characters (I hear Lion swarm) but can only play 1 Banzai per conflict.

So it's not as clear cut, is it?

I wouldn't cut either, Banzai strengthened by the fact that you get to choose the 2nd boost with cost after cancel opportunity has passed for the +2 (as I initially assumed you had to commit to 1H loss for +4 before full cancel window).

 

 

 

We are asking too much of a Core Set to not expect there to be auto-includes at x3. And even if it takes time to be superseded, this Core Pool relevance benefits late entrants..

What we all hope is that we don't have Core cards that forever overshadow alternatives necessitating a Core Set v2 release like Netrunner. It's a fine balancing act but I think they have done it well.

I think I hate Assassination most (as is) because it creates an artificial 3 cost barrier (as do a few other cards) and you can ignore it and just be lucky or lose to it which feels too much variance. Otherwise pervasive neutrals seem fine as a Core starting point. Assassination is fine once we get alternate victory conditions as far more viable.

To me, it's the best Core Set to date among competitive LCGs (to match best mechanics barring a few niggles like activation memory). FFG keep improving with every release and we're lucky to be in at the beginning of this one.


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#19
estyles

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BTW, Way of Lion does stack, due to stupid wording and a continuation of FFG's policy of terrible rulings: http://www.cardgamed...bayushi-yunako/


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#20
sparrowhawk

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BTW, Way of Lion does stack, due to stupid wording and a continuation of FFG's policy of terrible rulings: http://www.cardgamed...bayushi-yunako/


Thank you. So it's a multiplier before +/-. Unlike Vengeful Berserker which follows RR.

They create a beautiful product. And then they despoil it with silly rulings.
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