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These are auto-includes, right now, aren't they?


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31 replies to this topic

#21
Asklepios

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BTW, Way of Lion does stack, due to stupid wording and a continuation of FFG's policy of terrible rulings: http://www.cardgamed...bayushi-yunako/

 

That is... not English.

 

Okay, good to know though. Thanks!


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#22
Atrus

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I speak with my experience with the Lion Clan, not theorizing, at the beginning I ran both WotLion and Banzai but Banzai cost of Honor is something that I don't want in my deck and is max 1 per conflict also. Most of the deck is Military 3 and Way of Lion is awesome with Toturi alone also. More often than not WotLion is better than Banzai in Lion IMO.

 

For me Lion swarm deck is not real now (will be for sure). I prefer to play Lion elites and stick with them, they let me abuse the discard pile/provinces, are better in economy, "Honored general" and "Venerable Historian" helps against Crane "Voice of Honor", and overal they are very powerful in Military and Politics (Lion being bad in politics is a lie xD).

 

I can understand why you like Banzai more it's just that I prefer the other card in my deck. With more cards in the future is posible to reach 25 honor with the deck and the 1 honor loss is something that I don't want to pay. I play Banzai in Crane for example and is amazing.


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#23
estyles

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Thank you. So it's a multiplier before +/-. Unlike Vengeful Berserker which follows RR.

They create a beautiful product. And then they despoil it with silly rulings.

 

At the risk of getting too far off topic...

 

I wish FFG would just forget the word "double".  Way of the Lion should read "...that character gains +X [Military] skill until the end of the conflict, where X is that character's printed [Military] skill."  Vengeful Berserker should read "...this character gains +X [Military] skill until the end of the conflict, where X is this character's current [Military] skill." 

 

Yes, it would change the way those cards work slightly, but would be clean and (nearly) impossible to misinterpret.  And at least IMHO would represent the intention behind those cards perfectly well without introducing weird corner-case interactions and order-of-operations questions.



#24
GasPoweredStick

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I run 3x Banzai, and none of the other cards. Not running Assasination allows me to draw pretty much freely, and I find having a broad range of combat options, rather than a basic +2 skill, is more effective.

 

However, unicorn do have more flexibility in committal, so getting an extra 2 is often quite easy with the stronghold.


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#25
Ignithas

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I run 3x Banzai, and none of the other cards. Not running Assasination allows me to draw pretty much freely, and I find having a broad range of combat options, rather than a basic +2 skill, is more effective.
 
However, unicorn do have more flexibility in committal, so getting an extra 2 is often quite easy with the stronghold.

Then you probably play suboptimal decks. Having a lot of broad 0 cost conflict cards makes drawing cards a lot better.

#26
sparrowhawk

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Then you probably play suboptimal decks. Having a lot of broad 0 cost conflict cards makes drawing cards a lot better.

 

Er, that's a bit harsh (Conquest players may recall I have been harsh - I've aged and mellowed).

 

GasPower mentions playing Unicorn.

Have you considered the value of a Katana on a Border Rider or I am Ready? (Moto Horde can also host it)

Or the value of a Fan on a Warrior Poet or Yumino to avoid being knelt by Crane stronghold in a Political attack?

Or the value of having the ability to threaten the +2 moving attachment with Giver of Gifts?

Because it's free (unlike the 1F cost for a +1M/+1P bump via Mount or Spyglass, fine attachments), it's an always-on threat.

 

As for Assassination, whilst I can see why Lion may not run it because many Lion builds care about Honour, there is a lot of upside in the card. Once you put 1F or non-Ancestral attachment on a 2F character, it becomes a viable parity target (depending on game state/proximity to 0 Honour) and can swing conflicts hugely. You say you play Banzai then just shrug if that Dynasty card that cost you 2F and Banzai conflict card is countered by Assassination?

 

I do think Unicorn have plenty of tricks but each body on the table is bought and upkeeped upfront from a fixed budget of 7 (with rollover). There are 4 conflicts and Unicorn have 1.5 dynasty characters at cost 1. There's not much width to leverage Unicorn's optional commit. Hence the need to build a bit tall (attachments) at least. And punish opponents who build tall or long (Fate) on cost 2 characters.

 

GasPowered, I can envisage a time when your approach would be very viable - in Unicorn especially. But I doubt (though I'm not certain) that the pool is there yet. Perhaps trying them, playing with these "auto-includes", is worth an exploratory test?

 

I'm always happy to be proved wrong (thereby learn something) and it's really good to see someone brave enough to go against forum groupthink. Truly a bushi heart.

 

 

 

"Save Face", Neutral Event, Cost 0

Reaction: after a character gains Dishonour - remove its Dishonour


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#27
Silme

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good post sparrowhawk... a true crane one ! full of diplomacy :D

 

What is sure, is that not playing fan and katana (or neutral boosts)  make your deck hugely slower than average... In any "normal" deck, breaking a province with 1F peep is easy as you can +2/+3/+4 with lot of different things.

 

From this point, all become tactical choices : will you try two provinces in attack ? only one but try to mount a defense ? When you have 2/3/4 characters on table as in most times in most games, choices are everything and you just can afford to be an average of -2F on table on each character.

If you must commit 4+ force on bowed characters on any attack, this is totally different and you need 2x or 3x more peeps on table than average, medium speed decks.

 

In unicorn especially, in spite of their numerous tricks and easy ways to destroy stronholds, speed and tempo is everything as we have no bonus fate or solutions to have more bodies / more force on guys on table.

Moreso, unicorn don't have +2 in clan items (or even +1/+1) like dragon or lion for example. So the need of boosts is important, Not playing neutral items in unicorn mean you must near automaticly splash in dragon (for just take +2 items) to have exactly the same speed as most decks. 

Sad, especially in unicorn... Why not make a fast deck (or even an average one) and still get all those tricks that make unicorn spicy ?

 

 

As neutral items / banzai / charge / court games make an huge acceleration and give the consistent speed of your deck, not playing them mean you play an extreme slow deck. So you need to slow massively opponent's one.

Unicorn can't do that at all.

Phoenix can (ring manipulation + cloud + pacifism) or scorpion. In those decks, you can sometimes try very slow and crippled offensively decks... but this is an huge risk that i don't take personally. Even in control decks in phoenix or scorpion, i still manage to get the same speed than average decks (not blitz decks) to stand a chance.

 

 

so main reason of the autoincludness is : why trying to start a deck with hinderance ?  :D


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#28
GasPoweredStick

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Okay so I mistyped - I do include court games as well.

 

I will try out bringing  back in the 0 cost attachments, since the points about losing long term strength are fairly true. I am convinced against assasination however. While it hold a place in many decks, Unicorns inhouse draw is to easily disrupted to count upon spyglass and ide trader alone.

 

I will try moving things around to accommodate including the 0 costers.


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#29
Gauldoth2

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Unicorn have 1.5 dynasty characters at cost 1. 

 

It is not the frist time I read this statement in one of your posts, and I am not sure how you reached this number. Meishodo Wielder must be the 0,5 card, but both Moto Youth and Utaku Infantry cost one, so your calculation seems to be off.


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#30
sparrowhawk

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It is not the frist time I read this statement in one of your posts, and I am not sure how you reached this number. Meishodo Wielder must be the 0,5 card, but both Moto Youth and Utaku Infantry cost one, so your calculation seems to be off.

 

Oh my. I seem to have missed Utaku Infantry in my list!

 

They are suddenly alot alot better than I thought. Thank you.



#31
Hakkor

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Today played two games with scorpion (versus dragon) without fine katanas, ornate fans, court games, or banzais. Also, had 2 assasination, but haven't played any (couldn't or needn't). I didn't make that choice consciously, but discovered it after the two games. I won both, and learned that some "more expensive" events make a huge difference when played correctly, most of the times negating the opponents attachment build. They were close victories.

 

And I went into the thinking that the gap between small buff cards and board changing cards is larger than I thought. There would also be the support-like cards, that would fit into a whole new role. In the end, I think you can't win without some card from each group. So, it would be interesting to analyze the cards from each point of view.



#32
Silme

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Okay so I mistyped - I do include court games as well.

 

I will try out bringing  back in the 0 cost attachments, since the points about losing long term strength are fairly true. I am convinced against assasination however. While it hold a place in many decks, Unicorns inhouse draw is to easily disrupted to count upon spyglass and ide trader alone.

 

I will try moving things around to accommodate including the 0 costers.

 

Good move !

 

Moreso, in unicorn, the debate is even more over in unicorn as you have gift giver who is a monster character (lot of unicorn players favorize ide trader at first when they begin the game for obvious reasons but gift giver is far more important and stabilizator in high levels, i enter now gift giver near anytimes before ide trader) who help keep attachements forever on table if necessary... Sure spyglass is the first to keep on table / move but fire katana help me destroy an incredible numbers of time two provinces on the same turn...

 

another reason why neutral items, especially in unicorn, are autoinclude in competitive decks.