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Coldhands vs stolen Characters

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Best Answer mplain , 01 June 2018 - 08:17 AM

When a character leaves play, any lasting effects affecting it (including effects that change control) expire. When a character returns to play (regardless which removed-from-the-game area it was in), it enters play under its owner's control.

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8 replies to this topic

#1
gramyotron

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I have been thinking about Coldhands and Control and Ownership. 
First the cards:
Coldhands: Reaction: After you marshal Coldhands, choose 1 other non-Army character controlled by each player. Remove each of those characters from the game until Coldhands leaves play.
 
Now sections about C&O:
Cards by default enter play under their owner's control. Some abilities may cause cards to change control during a game.
A player controls the cards located in his or her out of play game areas (such as the hand, deck, discard pile, and dead pile).
If a card would enter an out of play area of a player who does not own the card, the card is placed in its owner's equivalent out of play area instead. (For all associated card ability and framework effect purposes, the card is considered to have entered that opponent's out of play area, and only the physical placement of the card is adjusted.)
 
So let’s say opponent took one of our characters (or we gave it to him via Broken Vows). Now Coldhands enters game, trigger his reaction and we choose our char and char owned by us which is controlled by opponent. Cards leave game. Coldhands dies. So looking at the first dot, do we receive both characters?
I would be sure if not for the third quoted dot.
 


#2
mplain

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I believe "removed from the game" is a single out-of-play area for both players. So it's not like players control cards in "their" removed-from-the-game area. Cards that are removed from the game are not controlled by anyone. And they enter play by default, under their owner's control.



#3
gramyotron

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My thoughts exactly.

However I developed a habit of not trusting myself completly when interpreting something new in Thrones.

 

If no one is strongly against this outcome, and by strongly agains I mean have some solid proof it is otherwise. It looks like a creative deck-building week for me.



#4
Khudzlin

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I believe "removed from the game" is a single out-of-play area for both players. So it's not like players control cards in "their" removed-from-the-game area. Cards that are removed from the game are not controlled by anyone.

 

It's not, and they are, according to the 2nd bullet point: "A player controls the cards located in his or her out of play game areas (such as the hand, deck, discard pile, and dead pile)." The list of out-of-play areas is not exhaustive. It doesn't change the end result, though, because those cards are going to enter play under their owners' control regardless.



#5
mplain

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While I can appreciate the notion of "The list of out-of-play areas is not exhaustive", I do not see how that is proof of there being multiple removed-from-the-game zones. Can you substantiate your claim?

#6
Khudzlin

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Every other known out-of-play area (deck, hand, discard pile, dead pile, plot deck, used pile, presumably shadows) has different "zones" based on ownership, with cards controlled by their respective owners. Why should "removed from the game" be any different?



#7
mplain

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Every other known out-of-play area (deck, hand, discard pile, dead pile, plot deck, used pile, presumably shadows) has different "zones" based on ownership, with cards controlled by their respective owners. Why should "removed from the game" be any different?

 
Because other out-of-play game areas are *in game*, and the removed-from-the-game area is not? Hence it is not actually a *game area*, thus the 2nd bullet point of Ownership and Control should not apply to it. That's my reasoning.

#8
Khudzlin

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Since cards can come back to play from it, I think it's still a *game area*, despite the name.



#9
mplain

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✓  Best Answer

When a character leaves play, any lasting effects affecting it (including effects that change control) expire. When a character returns to play (regardless which removed-from-the-game area it was in), it enters play under its owner's control.