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Obella Sand vs Claim Replacement

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Best Answer mplain , 31 May 2018 - 08:21 PM

If Obella Sand is chosen as the target during the effect of the Seastone Chair, can she trigger her effect?


Yes.   No.
 

Do we interpret this as "Instead of normal claim effects, do this other claim effect" ?


This is correct, as evidenced by the Rakharo + Seastone Chair ruling, and the Trial by Combat + Master of Whispers ruling.

 

EDIT: However, Seastone Chair replaces normal military claim with other claim. So Obella is no longer being killed for military claim.

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#1
chriswhite

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If Obella Sand is chosen as the target during the effect of the Seastone Chair, can she trigger her effect?

 

 

Rakharo has been ruled to gain power even when a claim-replacement effect (e.g. The Seastone Chair) is at work.  Thus, even though claim is replaced by an ostensibly non-claim kill, that kill is still 'satisfying claim'.  Personally, it's never been clear to me how claim can be successfully satisfied if it is replaced, but I'll go with it.

 

The Seastone Chair specifically says "Instead of the normal claim effects, kill that character"

 

Do we interpret this as "Instead of normal claim effects, do this other claim effect" ?

Or should it be "Instead of normal claim effects, do this other thing that (even though it kinda resembles it) is unrelated to claim" ?

If it is the first, then it seems to me that both Rakharo and Obella should trigger on military claim replacement.

If is the second, then neither should. 
 

 

Relevant card texts:

 

Obella Sand:  After Obella Sand is ... killed for [Mil] claim, move 1 power from the winning opponent's faction card to your own.

 

The Seastone ChairWhen claim is applied for an unopposed [Mil] challenge in which you are the attacking player, kneel your faction card to choose a character without attachments, controlled by the losing opponent. Instead of the normal claim effects, kill that character.

RakharoAfter a character is killed to satisfy claim during a challenge you initiated, Rakharo gains 1 power.



#2
mplain

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✓  Best Answer

If Obella Sand is chosen as the target during the effect of the Seastone Chair, can she trigger her effect?


Yes.   No.
 

Do we interpret this as "Instead of normal claim effects, do this other claim effect" ?


This is correct, as evidenced by the Rakharo + Seastone Chair ruling, and the Trial by Combat + Master of Whispers ruling.

 

EDIT: However, Seastone Chair replaces normal military claim with other claim. So Obella is no longer being killed for military claim.


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#3
ktom

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Note that there is a small caveat here.

 

When a claim replacement effect resolves, it does indeed change the way "normal" claim resolves for that challenge. It does not change the type of challenge claim being resolved unless the card specifically says that it does. That's important for Obella, who can only be triggered if she is killed for military claim (or discarded for intrigue claim).

 

So while mplain's answer is totally correct for Seastone Chair (since it always replaces military claim), and would be if Trial by Combat was the claim replacement effect (since it specifically says to resolve military claim instead of intrigue or power claim), it would not be true if Obella were chosen and killed when, say, Mirri Maz Duur attacked alone during an intrigue challenge. In that later case, Obella would be killed for intrigue claim, not for military claim.



#4
mplain

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Sorry guys, I messed up :(

Rakharo says "After a character is killed to satisfy claim during a challenge you initiated"

Obella says "After Obella Sand is <...> killed for military claim"

Military Claim is defined as "When a player loses a military ([military]) challenge as the defending player, that player must choose a number of different characters he or she controls equal to the claim value on the attacking player's revealed plot card, and kill those characters."

So, replacing normal claim effect with Seastone Chair would trigger Rakharo (a character is still being killed to satisfy claim), but would not trigger Obella (a character is killed to satisfy claim in a military challenge, but NOT to satosfy military claim).
 
We have a ruling by Danny Schaefer saying that Podrick Payne can save a character from Trial by Combat, but not from The Seastone Chair. (Source)