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Broken Combo from TKatG

- - - - - Broken Jank CoC

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51 replies to this topic

#21
dwarvenpony

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Ok, here is the testing breakdown. Out of 10 attempts the deck fired by turn 3 (turn 4 here is meaningless as most simple deck can clock turn 3 wins, so turn 4 is a loss in my tests) 6 times (the deck got lucky, it should have fired less than 5 for math). This alone makes it unplayable competitively, but there is more! Out of the 5 times it went off it managed to deck the opponent only once. And the opponent was a goldfish. I wanted to go to 20 tests but it got boring fast.

To be honest I can agree on your assestment of "Turn 1 wins are bad", but I think you are blowing this deck efficiency and effectiveness way over it should be.


Carioz - Do you mind posting your decklist you used for goldfishing? I've been getting many turn 2 wins goldfishing with my build and I'm wondering if it's because our decks are that different or simply because I'm getting good draws.

Our Regional was only one week after The Key and the Gate was released and we had 3 of these decks compete and do fairly well, even though their pilots had very little time to test and tune their decks. I haven't done enough testing yet, but this deck, while inconsistent, has great potential.

#22
Carioz

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Do you mind posting yours? After all you are the one getting interesting results.

#23
dwarvenpony

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Do you mind posting yours? After all you are the one getting interesting results.


Sure:

3x of each 11 Yithians
3x Doppelganger
3x Frozen Time
2x Journey to the Other Side
3x Alternative Historian
3x Museum Curator
3x Forbidden Knowledge

How similar is it to your decklist? I realize goldfishing is meaningless compared to 1v1 but I've been getting pretty consistent turn 2 wins, sometimes even first turn. The entire deck relies upon Keeper; if you don't get it you'll lose but you can win without the Historian by using Lost City, winning arcane struggles + Studying the Void, and/or using an Interstellar on yourself.

#24
dboeren

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What is the purpose of the Doppelgängers? Are they mainly defensive - mimicking enemy characters?

Otherwise it looks pretty good for maximizing the combo but I might put a couple more Miskatonic cards just to avoid the chances of having an Alternative Historian but not a resource match to play her.
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#25
arkhaminmate

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looks like the goldfish have been goldfishing. lucky the 3 second memory span is long enough to build this deck. anyone uses this against me and i will personally reach across the table and 'deck' them. milling is the lowest form of cowardly play and it has now reached its pinnacle it seems.

#26
Zephyr

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I'd try splashing something like:
Unspeakable Research (SoM)
Dr. Laban Shrewsbury (WaB)
Surprising Find (TbtA)
Unearthing the Ancients (Core)
Overworked Graduate Student (SoK)
Rabbit's Foot (TSotS)
So when you draw non Ichtian card you can draw more cards

#27
InSorteDiaboli

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looks like the goldfish have been goldfishing. lucky the 3 second memory span is long enough to build this deck. anyone uses this against me and i will personally reach across the table and 'deck' them. milling is the lowest form of cowardly play and it has now reached its pinnacle it seems.


Wait... I'm allowed to punch people if their deck is frustrating to play against? Time to use that gym membership!

#28
arkhaminmate

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just to clarify my reasons behind that statement and the proscribed action. turn 1 or 2 victory is not 'playing against'. there is no playing. if im not allowed to at least have a challenge or a chance (without playing a certain faction and hoping for the right cards), then whats the point even sitting down at the table? I should be able to have a chance of victory no matter what faction mix I (or others) wish to play with. decks like this ruin tournaments and make people turn away from the game. we (especially cthuhlu) rely on encouraging new players to the game. at our last National there were several new people, including one who hadnt even played before. what are they supposed to take away from the game when they get creamed by something like this? the people who are more interested in some stupid trophy at the expense of others enjoyment and advancing the game with a sense of fair play will find themselves with no one to 'play against' eventually. what have we become? MtG?? i know that if i come across this ill likely not bother with tournaments again, or probably the game itself. where's the fun? and that's what games are supposed to be. right? and whats it going to be next year? another ridiculous combo that slipped through playtesting like the Necro / Altar milling combo of 2012? it didn’t win any tournaments, but like this deck that is not the issue. the fact is im sure it demoralized and repelled quite a few along the way, and instead of swelling, our numbers instead shrink. THIS is my problem with combo millers. they chase new people away with a sense of hopelessness. shame on those who use it. shame. shame. shame. and perhaps a punch from me. hahaha.
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#29
InSorteDiaboli

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Oh I hear you dude. I didn't for a second think anyone would punch anyone. I don't know you, but that just isn't the way of us nerds.

Speaking from the perspective of a new player who's been playing for 3 weeks and hasn't seen any sort of crazy combos slip past FFG over the years. My 2 -pick a currency- is that if this is indeed the terrifying monster some people believe it to be, I hope FFG do something about it.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with mill decks. While they aren't my things, I love the fact that it adds another level of diversity. The flip side to that is that I hate anything that removes diversity, such as combos that creates a "Can't beat them so join them"-Meta. I don't know for a fact that this is it, but I for the sake of a better game, I hope that it is not.

#30
Tragic

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Great to see you again ArkHam... post more!!

Also I think that there is a big difference between "competitive" and "kitchen table" decks. Competitions by their very nature are not about fun, they are about winning. I do not really have a problem with this. If you are interested in thematic and synergistic decks, then to put it bluntly, the competitive arena is simply not for you. I do not think it is fair to hate on people that play the game, but play it in their own way. For me personally I am in 100% agreement with Arkham, but that is just what I get form the game, it is not for me to judge what other people get from the experience.

CoC is all about synergies. There is no way a designer can predict the combos that can be created across the entire card pool. Though the yard play in the key set was obviously open to abuse imo.. Still, I think it is a sign of a healthy game that such combos even"broken" ones can be built at all. Any top tier card game has times when certain deck and combos are just out of control. I see nothing wrong with this. It is just up to FFG to restrict or ban as needed. Any game you pick will have certain decks that have popped up that people cry broken. It is compounded with the internet. In the old days you built a deck and had a good chance that only you will have that deck, now days with the net everyone shows up running the same decks. So not only do power decks exist, but the dominate the event. This deck is really bad though, it has everything that is bad in ccg's in one deck. Infinite Combos, un-interuptable effects, self protection, self fueling... the list is just ridicules.

That being said, I feel that competitive players at comps should be allowed to play decks like this, in fact I think this is the entire point of that play style. Deck buliding and creating the most powerful and obnoxious deck possible. This is what competitive play is.. and not just in card games.. in ANY game. Winning. Now, do I respect a turn 2 Nyarlathotep? No. The decks require less skill to run and less skill to play. Still that doesn't mean that every OP combo needs to be nurffed.

So my attitude is, do not play in comps if this kind of thing offendes you, but play it.. this is the point. This deck is so powerful it will drastically change the comp scene I feel. Counter decks will show up, and I expect to see more "pros" thinking and building than crying about the power. Still I feel that these decks are not only easy to build but take no skill to play and while the players at these comps are great guys and skilled players, the event itself, when running a deck like this dose not impress me. I feel no respect. There was a similar chat about this topic in ANR about noiseshop.

So to put simply... I hate this deck, but I think it what comps are all about, deck like this.. just do not bring it to my house!

#31
arkhaminmate

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haha. fair calls. i suppose if some wish to be 'lords of little manors' in a competative scene which grows slower than what could be possible, with less and less diversity, as people peddle more and more 'power decks', then good luck to them. i, like you, will be giving them no respect.

its just a pity that the fan base is so small (wow, i wonder why?), that for some people, competitions are the only chance they get to play 'real life' games outside of the internet. i know that i am in this category. ive only played perhaps 2 or 3 casual games on the 'table' in nearly 2 years. but im not some whinger from experience. ive won my last (and only) 2 regionals with non meta decks and beaten the Shub behemoths and their friends quite soundly with some devious thinking (and a whole swag full of luck!!), and ill be taking a non meta deck to this years Nationals again (with pride!!). BUT. i'll quickly change my attitude if it starts becoming a bore facing the same deck types over and over again. i didnt spend a fair amount of money just to be caught in a dejavu loop. and i refuse to be just another meta monkey.

what i am doing is basing my posts on what i hear from fellow internet players who are new to the game. some people love the game but are not geographically fortunate. they go to tournaments with such hope and joy to actually be playing the game, only to be crushed and left feeling that they wasted their time and money travelling so far for so little. for those that are like this, ill tell you now to rethink your reasons for going. you might be disappointed. unless of course you take a deck you neither enjoy playing or feel proud about, or perhaps don't mind seeing your arse on a platter if your non meta deck doesnt perform on the day as it absolutely needs to. be prepared for this and you'll be fine (unless you get milled 1st turn).

you hit the nail on the head about the type of people you will be playing against. but you are absolutely correct. it is 'their' arena.

i dont feel that this deck will be an absolute tournament win. far from it. i dont think it will even win 1 tournament. it relies too much on luck i believe. but, it would be a shame if someone who has spent months building a really nice deck that can 'possibly' counter the meta in new and interesting ways that might change things, gets taken out by someone who has simply thrown a deck together in 5 minutes and chances a victory against it with no skill or effort at all, and leaves the meta in its present stagnating form. namely me !! hahaha.

lastly. i will admit that i suppose i dont mind milling in a controlled forum, built in a clever way, and that doesnt simply sit around for the pieces to fall together to cry out 'game over', aka last years Necro / Altar combo. this strategy just gets my goat. it isnt playing the game. its just waiting to win or lose. and frankly, i hope and pray that its the latter.

#32
InSorteDiaboli

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I agree with Tragic, if you're gonna play with the big boys, then yeah, assume that they are bringing the nastiest **** they can come up with. As they should. It's just more fun when the nasty **** is not the same thing over and over.

its just a pity that the fan base is so small

This, a hundred times this.

While I don't agree that the high caliber playing will scare away a more casual crowd(I think that's what you were saying) I do think it is in everyone's best interest to give new players a pleasant experience. Maybe just not at tournaments.

Anyways, I feel partially responsible for derailing the thread, apologies.
Looking forward to see what finds people make about this combo/deck.

#33
arkhaminmate

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hahaha. me too. ill slink back to my johnny hole now ive had my vent. CARRY ON !!

#34
Tragic

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hahaha. me too. ill slink back to my johnny hole now ive had my vent. CARRY ON !!


noooo... keep posting Arkham!! You should write articles.. I love your deck building!!!

#35
DONA14

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YESTERDAY I PLAY WITH A YITHIAN DECK(WIHTOUT MU) AND WON, BUT NO FUN. I TRIGGERED A LOT ACTION A TURN FOR FREE, AND WON WITH INTERSTELLAR IN A SUDDEN, AND MY OPPONENT JUST CAN DO NOTHING. NO NEED TO BLOCK THE ATTACK BECAUSE OF
De Vermis Mysteriis (TKatG) AND
Spell-bound Shoggoth (Core)
. JUST FOCUS ON FILLING THE DISCARD PILE AND TRIGGER ALL EFFECT. I HATE A DECK WHICH LIKE PLAYING ALONE :mellow:

#36
arkhaminmate

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noooo... keep posting Arkham!! You should write articles.. I love your deck building!!!


hahaha again.

really? you want my attitude and opinions writing articles. i can just imagine. mwar mwar mwar f#*k this and f#*k that. mwar mwar get some f#*kin originality. mwar mwar mwar this deck style f#*kin sucks and that deck style is a f#*kin bore. shove it up your f#*kin meta lovin arse !!

hee hee hee.

carry on with the thread about that stupid f#*kin milling deck.......

#37
dwarvenpony

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What is the purpose of the Doppelgängers? Are they mainly defensive - mimicking enemy characters?


They're mainly for copying your Keeper. Your win rate goes up dramatically if you have 2 Keepers in play and makes winning without Historian easier. I've had first turn Historian + Keeper + Doppelganger which is simply unfair. I agree with others that this deck isn't good for the game and I think errata should be given to the Keeper.

#38
Tragic

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hahaha again.

really? you want my attitude and opinions writing articles. i can just imagine. mwar mwar mwar f#*k this and f#*k that. mwar mwar get some f#*kin originality. mwar mwar mwar this deck style f#*kin sucks and that deck style is a f#*kin bore. shove it up your f#*kin meta lovin arse !!

hee hee hee.

carry on with the thread about that stupid f#*kin milling deck.......


Well I still play some of the decks you posted ages ago... you should post more and chat more... I dig your style!

http://www.cardgamed...-the-loony-bin/

for example I think this is a awesome deck!

#39
Jhaelen

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I dig your style!

I don't ^^
Luckily, at least there's an ignore function in this forum! B)
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#40
Zephyr

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The fact that you don't like the deck is one thing. If it works that good I don't think anyone likes this kind of meta.

The fact that you're completely ignorant of competitive play and just whine like a little kid is another thing.

"I should be able to have a chance of victory no matter what faction mix I (or others) wish to play with."
CoC is ridiculously complicated system with 1000+ card types. This statement is simply impossible. And no designer can get anywhere close to this goal. They're doing relatively nice in CoC IMO. I just think that with this power level cards more bans and erratas will need to be made.
(I certainly prefer getting some too strong cards and erratas/bans than getting bookmarks and meta doesn't change)

For tournament setting there is really no way to define "fun" deck. Is losing to mass AOs more fun, or to MU Control-rush, or to hand discard, or to domain lock... and you cant just ban every deck you didn't like playing against. FFG needs to ensure real rules that forbid degenerate decks from dominating meta.

And i agree some meetings with less competitive more fun decks would be nice. But wanting regional tournaments be non competitive doesn't make any sense.
If you can play competitive with non-meta decks good for you, but whining other players play dominant decks doesn't make sense.
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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Broken, Jank, CoC