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The underdog runner

- - - - - poll runner identity

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Poll: The underdog runner (83 member(s) have cast votes)

Which Criminal Identity do you prefer?

  1. Gabriel Santiago (42 votes [50.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.60%

  2. Andromeda (41 votes [49.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.40%

Which Anarch identity do you prefer?

  1. Noise (54 votes [65.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 65.06%

  2. Whizzard (29 votes [34.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.94%

Which Shaper identity do you prefer?

  1. Kate "Mac" McCaffrey (46 votes [55.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 55.42%

  2. Chaos Theory (37 votes [44.58%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 44.58%

Which Runner is the most underdog?

  1. Gabriel Santiago (1 votes [1.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.20%

  2. Andromeda (4 votes [4.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.82%

  3. Noise (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Whizzard (56 votes [67.47%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 67.47%

  5. Kate "Mac" McCaffrey (12 votes [14.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.46%

  6. Chaos Theory (10 votes [12.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.05%

Which Runner is the SECOND most underdog?

  1. Gabriel Santiago (1 votes [1.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.20%

  2. Andromeda (11 votes [13.25%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.25%

  3. Noise (5 votes [6.02%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.02%

  4. Whizzard (12 votes [14.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.46%

  5. Kate "Mac" McCaffrey (32 votes [38.55%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.55%

  6. Chaos Theory (22 votes [26.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.51%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1
Yoshuriken

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I was thinking about how Whizzard is the most "underdog" of all the current runners. By that, I mean he is generally considered the 'worst' by the established experienced player base. Whether or not you believe Whizzard is actually bad, you must see how he is not normally thought of as good by many people.
Anyway, I was thinking that the second most underdog of all the runners is Andromeda. I mentioned this to someone (the same someone who I argued with about Pop-up Window) and he thought that Kate is the second most underdog. I tried to explain that I've heard many people say Gabe is better than Andromeda, but not vice-versa, while I've heard many opinions about the Shapers, but nobody has really said Kate is "bad". So I came here and started a poll again, this time to see which runners are thought of as the most underdog by the general public.
Why does it seem all my arguments lead to polls? :P

#2
NegativeX

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Before I vote I would like to explain my selection. I believe that whizzard is the weakest simply because his effect is rarely as useful as any of the other runners, however I like playing him more than noise because when you play whizzard your opponent leaves their archives open for data leak reversal and Retrieval run. Also even though his ability is less useful I still save around 6 credits using him per a game. Actually I would consider him better than kate if it weren't for the fact that I love the new anarch identity card and I will soon replace whizzard with her. Kate is my second least favorite because her effect usually save me that much money and therefore I prefer chaos theory's shorter deck size and additional mu. The reason I like andromeda over Gabe is, if you haven't guessed by now, I prefer decks with combos and fun card interactions over decks that were created for the sole purpose of never losing.
  • GuardianOfTheFlame likes this

#3
sirprim

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[opinion]
I can't share your assessment of Andromeda. I'd say she has taken the meta by storm and might even be the #1 runner ID at the moment.
[/opinion]
[fact]
Even if Andromeda is not number one, she clearly is no underdog. Not by a large margin.
[/fact]

edit: I believe current power rankings would look something like:

Gabe/Andromeda > Noise > Kate/Chaos Theory > Whizzard

#4
GuardianOfTheFlame

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I agree with sirprim rankings and I also think that the real underdog is whizzard: it seems to me that Kate and Chaos Theory are quite used... if they are less used than Criminal and Noise it's more a problem of faction than ID ;)

There are many more underdogs in corporation :P

#5
NegativeX

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There are many more underdogs in corporation :P

I agree, I believe the best corps in descending order are Haas bioroid engineering the future, Jinteki personal evolution, NBN Making News, Weylands and jinteki personal evolution (tie), second HB and NBN identities (another tie).

#6
LeoLancer

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I agree, I believe the best corps in descending order are Haas bioroid engineering the future, Jinteki personal evolution, NBN Making News, Weylands and jinteki personal evolution (tie), second HB and NBN identities (another tie).


You mentioned Jinteki: Personal Evolution twice, but didn't mention Jinteki: Replication Perfection. I'll bet it was a typing error. I'm interested to see which one you like better. (Or maybe you hate Replication Perfection so much you deliberately omitted it... :P)

#7
NegativeX

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Oops, I meant replication perfection for the one tied with the weylands. I love the idea behind it but I always hate how many expensive specific cards I need to add to make the identity work.

#8
Jhaelen

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I'm not sure there is any underdog identity. I do consider Whizzard to be the weakest, though. In testing my decks always seemed to improve when I replaced Whizzard with Noise.
Andromeda has grown on me and it's the identity I'm using for my current deck. I still think Gabriel is the better one, but at least with her I don't have a bad feeling when taking a mulligan.
Chaos Theory didn't really work for me. Similar to my Anarch deck, replacing her with Kate (and adding a few cards) resulted in a much better deck.

#9
Yoshuriken

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Well, I was obviously wrong. I was right in that (so far, anyway) it seems Kate and CT are pretty close in popularity, while Gabe is more popular than Andy. I forgot to take into account the Shapers' lack of popularity overall.
And I don't think Whizzard is bad, either. Nor Andy. "Bad" is an opinion, "underdog" is more factual, as it is about popularity.

#10
Zephyr

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Andy is quite nice, i initially thought of her as worse gabe, but minimising risk of a bad start is huge. Especially as with good hand you can get about extra turn of draw, and your chance of having right surprise cards from turn 1 are much higher.

I think Wizzard should get errata of 1 link, or at least some card to use his passive. But i really hate him as he shuts down fun archetype of asset heavy play, but does completely nothing agains corps low on assets... I don't like this dynamics.

Kate vs CT is a draw for me, I think i like Kate a bit more, but CT is also ok, and shapers need C&C to become more interesting. RnD interfae made them much stronger, but in a kinda boring way. Hope CnC brings more interesting shaper centered mechanics into game.

#11
Yoshuriken

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I certainly think it does. The whole new slew of cards about trashing programs and programs in the trash seems really fun. Not to mention the three identities.

#12
NegativeX

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I honestly believe the new identities for shaper are weaker than the current two. I will, of course, play around with them but all of their effects seem more like they are more flashy and flamboyant than useful.

#13
Lysander

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I think Wizzard should get errata of 1 link, or at least some card to use his passive. But i really hate him as he shuts down fun archetype of asset heavy play, but does completely nothing agains corps low on assets... I don't like this dynamics.

I forsee an influx of Corp assets that'll almost necessitate trashing (the upcoming City Surveillance, for example), which should make Whizzard a bit more playable. Though I agree 1 link or more cards that assist would definitely help Whizzard's case.

For that matter, Noise's ability should be a once per turn use, but that's a dead horse I guess I'll beat another day.
  • kenobob likes this

#14
LeoLancer

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I honestly believe the new identities for shaper are weaker than the current two. I will, of course, play around with them but all of their effects seem more like they are more flashy and flamboyant than useful.


Not useful? I predict Kit unlocking a new aggro shaper archetype, and Exile will be very strong with so many cards working with his ability (not to mention his base link is really nice).

Though I do agree as far as the Professor is concerned.

#15
Zephyr

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I forsee an influx of Corp assets that'll almost necessitate trashing (the upcoming City Surveillance, for example), which should make Whizzard a bit more playable. Though I agree 1 link or more cards that assist would definitely help Whizzard's case.

For that matter, Noise's ability should be a once per turn use, but that's a dead horse I guess I'll beat another day.


I hate wizzard because he makes otherwise fine builds around assets risky as he hard counters them. And his problem is decks without assets. His strength is too dependant on opponents deck. From "does nothing at all" to "wrecks deck idea".

And city survilance is quite expensive for effect that drains 1 credit off runner. If corps can catch up in econ it will be fine, but currently its really hard to keep up with all the Katis, Underword contracts and MOs.

#16
NegativeX

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Not useful? I predict Kit unlocking a new aggro shaper archetype, and Exile will be very strong with so many cards working with his ability (not to mention his base link is really nice).

Though I do agree as far as the Professor is concerned.

If we say that draws and credits are equally useful than I believe that Kate will be considerably better than Exile. Kate has a more consistent ability and does not have to add as many cards to make her deck work. Further to play Exile you will have to change your play style to purposefully add cards to your heap in order to get his ability to go off and make the cards utilizable. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe their are only two cards that get cards from heap that have been spoiled and that are currently out. This does not seem like enough to get his ability off consistently. Kit might be good I'm still in the air about her. I really dislike the 10 influence and need of an early code gate plus stacking ice is an easy counter.

#17
LeoLancer

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If we say that draws and credits are equally useful than I believe that Kate will be considerably better than Exile. Kate has a more consistent ability and does not have to add as many cards to make her deck work. Further to play Exile you will have to change your play style to purposefully add cards to your heap in order to get his ability to go off and make the cards utilizable. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe their are only two cards that get cards from heap that have been spoiled and that are currently out. This does not seem like enough to get his ability off consistently. Kit might be good I'm still in the air about her. I really dislike the 10 influence and need of an early code gate plus stacking ice is an easy counter.


When Exile is released, there will be four cards that can install a program from the Heap (Test Run, Clone Chip, Scavenge, and Retrieval Run). With just these, it is reasonable to assume that you will have ~10 cards in your deck that can trigger Exile's ability, meaning you can use his ability about 5 times in a game. This is comparable to 10 credits if you use Magnum Opus. Likely better than Kate, unless you are purposely including more hardware and programs in your deck, which doesn't seem much different than including cards that trigger Exile's ability. Plus, Exile can be triggered multiple times a turn.

Getting programs into your Heap seems easy to me, with Diesel and Quality Time.

On Kit, stacked ICE can be overcome with Tinkering and Test Run + Femme Fatale. And getting an early Decoder should be a piece of cake. But I agree that the 10 influence is a hit, although a necessary one.

#18
Zephyr

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Exile i'm not convinced, well see how useful installing form discard is. His ability works nice for him he can easily draw much cards, trash programs when going back to 5 card limit. Then install them from heap effectively getting a much bigger hand, so it will make running 3xDiesel + 3xQuality time more viable and make searching for stuff by drawing much more effective.

But if this idea even works the question is: are you not better off with some other runner, is his ability doing that much for you. How many things you'll actually install form heap. Is playing him not giving out too much as opponent instantly knows you need much heap recursion cards, and will block archives suspecting Retrival run. He might hurt more than he helps.

And Kit weak? Because corp can obviously stack 2 ICE on every server... And permanent inside job with yogosauros is not really strong... And shaper with really strong early that needs only one breaker with all the tutors shapers will have once CnC is out... Are we playing the same game? 10 inf will hurt, but this one has huge potential. I hope corps start getting better toys, as runners are getting scarier and scarier with each pack. And corps need new toys too.
  • Lysander likes this

#19
NegativeX

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Kit might be good I'm still in the air about her.

This best represents my feelings upon Kit. In my first post on the new shaper identities I was thinking of Exile and The Professor. You two have valid points on Kit though I would never use yogosauros with her. I find it hard to get Dinosauros off consistently and shaper has good in faction options. Plus this requires using 3 limited influence on yogs. This clashes with early game runs as well for you need those two cards, two clicks to play them, and ten credits to get it off. Also stacking ice on hq and RnD to stall is not all that difficult.

#20
NegativeX

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As for Exile even if you do get his ability off consistently I believe you may be paying more for it than to just play the cards from your grip. Clone chip costs 1 click, 1 credit, and 1 card for something you could do just by playing it from your hand. With Exile's ability that is pretty much just 1 credit more but it does not gain you anything. Scavenge has potential, for example you could sacrifice an early Crypsis to complete your rig, though once again you could just play it from your grip and it isn't that much worse just to play the card without scavenge. Retrieval run is a good card but costs influence and archives may be protected when they see you playing Exile. Test Run is expensive and seems like its better when you get the added benefit of it being a tutor. Though admittedly I could see potential for Exile in a fast rig deck in which you draw a lot and then discard without caring about the cards because you can get them back.





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