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Expanding CoC: first steps?

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115 replies to this topic

#41
Wilbur

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Well... What the gee-whiz...

HPLHS

Go give them your money, too. They're awesome.
  • Midian likes this

#42
badash56

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FFG probably could do more to promote Cthulhu, but they are not as big a company as you think. Plus they have a limited budget like everyone else.

I think it's safe to say that Cthulhu makes money. If it didn't - they would not make new products for it. I'm sure they have a good idea how much product they will sell, and only print a reasonable amount so they make a profit.

#43
Wilbur

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The box thing was tried with AGoT first though, which is the biggest living card game, so if anything they move Cthulhu more towards a strategy that works well...

I was actually referring to the 60x APs (Forgotten Lore, Yuggoth Contract, Rituals of the Order, Ancient Relics, Revelations), not the boxes. And, just to clarify, my point wasn't that the 60x strategy was wrong, but that it was a test. As far as I can tell, it worked, and I think FFG is making a mistake in the Netrunner (which I don't play, so i have no horse in the race) distribution.

Perhaps the optimists are right. Cthulhu is well-crafted, has hit a bit of a sweet spot design-wise, and seems to have an effective distribution strategy. The design team seems not incompetent, as well. I certainly hope the optimists are right.


#44
Midian

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So say we all! Doesn't Netrunner use the 3x distribution just like all the other games?

#45
Wilbur

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No, the core set includes 3x of some stuff, 2x of some stuff, and 1x of some stuff. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

#46
badash56

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So say we all! Doesn't Netrunner use the 3x distribution just like all the other games?


Yup it is the same. 60 card packs x3 each. The first deluxe box is coming out shortly.

#47
badash56

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No, the core set includes 3x of some stuff, 2x of some stuff, and 1x of some stuff. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


You are correct.

#48
Midian

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Oh you meant the Core. The thing is that a playable Core garners more casual player who just try the game out and get a much better game in Netrunner or Lord of the Rings Core boxes than in Call of Cthulhu, I am sad to say.

The problem is of course when you start to get into the game, I'm the kind of person who minds getting extra cards if I ever get into Netrunner and buy extra Cores. A functional Core set with good decks is probably still better than not scamming collectors who must have everything (we're so used to being scammed anyway).

Sure Star Wars did it better, but that's made by Eric Lang so no surprise there. Seriously though, Star Wars pod system with a 2x pod ceiling us easier to please everyone with than Netrunners (and Cthulhus) classic CCG style.



#49
Wilbur

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Sure Star Wars did it better, but that's made by Eric Lang so no surprise there. Seriously though, Star Wars pod system with a 2x pod ceiling us easier to please everyone with than Netrunners (and Cthulhus) classic CCG style.

I'm not familiar with the Star Wars model. Would you mind explaining?

Also, I wouldn't suggest that they follow the Cthulhu core model. It's nice for serious players willing to lay down the money, but it's terrible for someone who just wants to buy the box off the shelf and have a good experience. I can remember when I first got the game and my friend and I just sort of waited for Ravager from the Deep (Core) to show up and take over the game!

I was thinking more of like a (great) big box, with 3x (or whatever the playset is) of everything. But perhaps the Star Wars model is superior?

#50
Wilbur

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Also, you win, nerds:

https://www.teefury.com/
  • badash56 likes this

#51
Midian

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Star Wars has a model where you pick 10x objectives. Each objective has 5x cards in its pod so you get a 50x deck. Core set has 1x of objectives/pods. You can have a maximum of 2x of an objective in a deck so while the Core contains playable decks you also only need 2 of it when collecting. Best of both worlds really.

Since Eric Lang made Cthulhu back in the day I personally think there are a lot of evolutions ftom Cthulhu in Star Wars, but that's another discussion.

#52
Wilbur

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Thanks for the explanation. That does sound like an elegant solution to the problem of balancing casual and competitive play.

#53
dboeren

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FFG has definitely learned how to make a better Core since the crusty old days when CoC came out.

As a completist, I actually like CoC's 1x model. I can buy 2 Cores and have "enough" or I can buy 3 Cores if I want everything. No wasted cards, and no feeling that I'm wasting my money at any point. However, it is less beginner friendly.

Netrunner seems to do a good job. If you buy 2x Cores you're pretty much done. There are a very few cards you still only have 2x of, but for the most part it's not a big issue. There is some card waste, and if you buy the 3rd Core you really feel like you're getting ripped off - which is why most people don't do it. However, the Core-only play is really good because you have 3x of the most vital cards and 2x of the semi-important ones. I feel they made pretty good choices with this one.

Star Wars, so far as I know has no waste. You buy two Cores, and you can have 2x of each objective set. It's super-beginner friendly because you don't need to know how to build a deck to play it. Just pick 10 objectives from the same faction (or some neutrals) and you are *GUARANTEED* to have a playable casual deck. That's big for the non-card game people who usually feel threatened by deck building, like a lot of the BGG crowd, or possibly your significant other.

Personally, I think the *second* system they design using the objective set concept is going to be awesome. It's a major innovation but with all such things there will be lessons learned and they'll be able to do it even better the next time. So, while it might be wishful thinking I'm postponing any decisions on Star Wars until after Gencon to see if they announce anything new. btw, not that Star Wars isn't a good game already. It is, and it's the 3rd LCG I'm considering collecting which I wouldn't do if I didn't think it was a good game.
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#54
Zephyr

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I seriously hate netrunner Core distribution. I have 2x Core, and those x1 are so irritating. They're not really that important, they ware pretty good at deciding core cards to go x3, important cards to go x2 and icing to go x1.
Its jut they picked good icing, and buying a core set for 11 cards is just...
especilay as pretty much only SanSan is x3 must, many others are even worse as x3 than x2, as they are quite interesting, but either unique or not important enough to put that many in a deck. (But NR deckbuilding is really different than CoC IMO)

I'd prefer they either go with all x2 so you can go with 1,5 cores, or did an "cards lacking to x3" pack.
It might even cost a bit more than core set itself, i just hate buying useless cardboard.

CoC all x1 i liked, but I started with 2xCore + Secrets as i played some CoC with friends decks and decided to go into it quite fast. Shortly after I started buying APs for the deck ideas i had so i didnt play much with small card pool. But CoC core sounds like really awful thing for core only play. Netrunner works quite well - for quite some time there ware no DPs yet and it worked rather nicely, and 2x core offers quite a lot of deckbuilding thanks to influence system.

#55
Wilbur

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You could use the extra 6x of your Netrunner cards for crafting, I guess?

Like, alter Aesop's Pawnshop into Aesop's Pornshop and sell it on Etsy.

#56
blinovitch

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With two Netrunner core sets, at least there's enough cardboard to make permanent proxies for casual play.

#57
Wilbur

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I ain't playin' proxies, fool! This is Netruner!

I'm just clowning around, so you know. I'm not trying to start a riot up in here. :)

#58
Zephyr

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Second core is ok imo, the core cards are still base so its needed to run 2 decks for each side. And bringing 2x to 3x is also important. Bringing x1 to x2 is very important to make more consistent decks.
So all in all 1st core to check the game or play as a standalone not LCG works good.
If you get into game 2nd core makes much sense.
But 3td is plain stupid IMO. If you buy it it sounds like you got not much of it, if you dont you miss this 3td copy of a few cards... no win situation. You can try hunting for singles you want on auctions or something, but isn't LCG about easy access to cards and enjoying the game not thinking how to get cards in a more economical way...

(Proxying is a way and im currently proxying this 2-3 1x cards i lack 3td copy of, it just feels bad in a LCG
And its not even that i cant find money to buy another core, Its i would feel bad for spending this money on 11 cards in LCG format...)

PS: hmm i think its getting more and more off topic

#59
Wilbur

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It's dumb. FFG is well aware of the problems created by distribution of cards in differing quantities, as many ridiculous posts can show. I don't have a horse in this race, as I have no intention of playing Netrunner personally. I understand FFG's reasoning, I just think it's flawed. What would it hurt to just print 3x of everything? How many cards would it add to the box? It would obviously add nothing to the design, development, or art budget. It would be the cost of whatever, 30 pieces of paper. Anybody who's going to shell out 25-40 bucks for Netrunner is going to shell out another two bucks.

#60
Tragic

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it would cut sales by a third though.