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Cards you want to like but somehow don't quite make it

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73 replies to this topic

#1
dboeren

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I was messing around with a deck idea the other day and came across one of these, a card I really like in theory, but who rarely ever makes it into an actual deck because it just doesn't quite do what I want it to. The card I'm thinking of here is Silver Twilight Enforcer (TOotST).

ST can use some muscle, and boy does this guy have it. But, because he returns to hand he's expensive and seldom actually gets to kill anyone since they see him coming. Who's going to commit to a story if he's already there? You can't use him on defense either because he'll be back into your hand already.

Depending on your other faction there might be some good tricks, and he does work nicely with Nathan Wick, but Nathan is expensive and losing your Enforcer before he comes back to hand is a little painful. Still, taking out two enemy characters could be worth it depending who you get.

Anyway, I feel like I want to give him another shot sometime and that's more or less what this topic is about :)

#2
orso

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This topic is a nice idea. :)
I also have some cards I really would like to include them into a deck...but they do not trigger because they are too expensive and if I can pay them I have other crds I do need more at this point of game and so I resource them or use them for other effects, like paying with handcards to trigger effects or something else...
Especially Syndicate cards. (Syndicate is my favourite faction!)
Friend of the Family (TTftS) I like his effect! But it's too expensive! And there are always other 4cost charctersthat make it into my decks and kick him out!

Gang Warfare (PT) in general a nice effect, but it's also too expensive and the operation phase limitation doesn't feel very good to me...(depends too much on opponents deck if it is udeful or not?)

Freelance Photographer (Core) I like the image of this card! (one of the best IMO) but also too expensive and not that good at all...because it needs a 2nd domain to trigger his effect.

Other cards that look nice somehow but never made it into my decks are some deep ones. (because they need a second domain or are too expensive al all... (even for a casual theme-deck)

#3
dboeren

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Both of those guys also suffer from being cost 4's in a faction that rarely resources that high. In other words, you'd be adding an extra resource JUST for them. Friend of the Family at least looks like a very strong defender, I think I'd take him over Freelance Photographer.

Have you tried using Hanyatl's 12:3 to get these guys into play, and if so, has that helped any? It's a pretty easy criteria to meet for Syndicate.

Deep One decks are kind of popular around here, but it's true that even there certain Deep Ones are in every deck (Backwater) while others just don't seem to show up too often (Adult). It's not so much that they're bad though, just that there are so many Deep Ones that naturally you're going to take the best ones first and you can fill a whole deck of 'em without having to reach all the way down to the bottom of the barrel.

#4
orso

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Have you tried using Hanyatl's 12:3 to get these guys into play, and if so, has that helped any? It's a pretty easy criteria to meet for Syndicate.

Yes, but it's better withHack Journalist (DD) or Johnny Valone (AoA) (best choice for Hanyatl IMO, at least if you play a criminal deck)

also Thomas Bannano (PT) looks better to me.
as well as Dr. Marinus Bicknell Willett (Core) and Tyler Scindere (WitD) (is also be worth to be payed by domain with
Johnny V's Dame (AoA) IMO)
So this is why friend of family and freelance photographer never make it into the deck :(

#5
Wilbur

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I've always liked The Cthonian Stone (TSS), but it kinda... sucks. I wish that the designers would include more cards with cross-faction steadfast - I don't think every good card should get to go into every deck that splashes that color.

Also, can anyone think of another example of this (cross-faction steadfast)? I can't.

#6
dboeren

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Also, can anyone think of another example of this (cross-faction steadfast)? I can't.


First one that comes to mind for me is Lodge Barkeep (TOotST). Hey, are you playing Silver Twilight and Syndicate together? Here you go buddy! And he's actually a good character too! It is a cool and underused idea, maybe they could flesh that out some in an upcoming box someday?

Back to Syndicate... Most of their cost 4+ guys are under-used I think. I'd love to see their big guys get more play time, just takes a couple of the right cards to reward high cost Syndicate characters and maybe you'd see some of them get used more. Hanyatl's was a step in the right direction though.

#7
Wilbur

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It is a cool and underused idea, maybe they could flesh that out some in an upcoming box someday?

I hope they do. I think it helps deckbuilding become less... automatic. It also potentially lends itself to some great thematic color. Now they just need some dual-faction cards good enough to build around!

#8
Tragic

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I tried really hard to make a kitchen table combo deck using Azathoth (SoA) and lodge chars like Initiate of Huang Hun (CotJE) and Lord Jeffrey Farrington (TOotST)

The idea is you stall and then play the table wipe, bounce and run uncontested. I still like the idea of this, but the fact it it just doesn't work.. even in a kitchen table scenario. At least not for me. There are just to many "into play" effects and the combo itself removes things like [/size]Flux Stabilizer (PT) or Prepared Alienist (TKatG) and stuff and also the nature of the bounce means that the bounce cards die next time you run the combo, as you are not bouncing the bounce cards back into hand, your bouncing Azathoth (SoA)

I could say bounce more times in a single sentence am sure!

Anyway, so this is the card I always wanted to get to work.. but just couldn't :(

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#9
GrahamM

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I was messing around with a deck idea the other day and came across one of these, a card I really like in theory, but who rarely ever makes it into an actual deck because it just doesn't quite do what I want it to. The card I'm thinking of here is Silver Twilight Enforcer (TOotST).

ST can use some muscle, and boy does this guy have it. But, because he returns to hand he's expensive and seldom actually gets to kill anyone since they see him coming. Who's going to commit to a story if he's already there? You can't use him on defense either because he'll be back into your hand already.


My friends and I generally don't play with super-competitive decks because our limited card pool means not everyone can play one, but one of of my better decks was a mono-silver twilight rush deck (pre-Seekers). I used two copies of silver twilight enforcer because he could usually seal away the final story pretty well on turn three or four. He definitely wasn't the most used card in the deck but there are others I would've taken out first.

#10
Midian

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The problem with Azatoth is that hecreates a lasting passive effect when he enters play so that even if you bounce him you still lose the game at the end of the turn.

#11
Tragic

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oh.. lol.. well it wouldn't have ever worked then!! I always thought that passive effects no longer trigger if the card is not in play.... are there other cards that have passive effects lasting longer than the life of the card?

#12
Jhaelen

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The problem with Azatoth is that hecreates a lasting passive effect when he enters play so that even if you bounce him you still lose the game at the end of the turn.

I'm unconvinced. Why do you think it creates a lasting effect? Imho, if the card's no longer in play when the passive ability would take effect, nothing happens.

#13
Midian

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I thought it could be blanked/bounced but someone on these or FFGs board convinced me otherwise. Tried to find the thread but failed, wouldn't surprise me if that it wrong though, I just took the safe route (and as with conspiracies, I trust FFG to interpret the rules in the worst way possible). I had a fun deck which bounced him as well but itg wasn't like it worked even in a casual enviroment so I haven't been mailing Damon about it or anything. Maybe that should be done.

#14
blinovitch

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Also, can anyone think of another example of this (cross-faction steadfast)? I can't.

There's also Educated Officer (PT), an Agency character steadfast with Miskatonic.

#15
badash56

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You do not lose the game if Azathoth leaves play before the end of the round, using Aziz Chatuluka (TSS) with him is the most common use I've seen.

#16
Midian

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I am pretty sure it was on the FFG boards that someone took up this point with me and said I couldn't bounce him to avoid the passive effect, but I can only search my posts since the reset of the boards over there so no luck finding the discussion. I did read through the FAQ and I am still not 100% sure how his effect works. The card is really vague about the initiation of the effect, though the trigger is clear. The problem with passive effects like this (and Chess prodigy, which the following FAQ statement concerns) is that they stay in effect even if the card leaves play.

From the FAQ:
Once an effect has been
initiated it must be resolved (unless
it is a triggered effect that has been
canceled by a disrupt).


So when does Azatoth initiates. End of turn? Doesn't say that, just says that at the end of the turn you are eliminated, so it resolves at the end of the turn for sure. Chess prodigy clearly states that it initiates when he commits and the effect resolves during the story struggle. No problem there but no such luck with Azatoth, you could easily read the card as initiating the passive effect when entering play (doesn't matter how) and resolving at the end of the turn. I would like to interpret the card as initiating the effect at the end of the turn on the other hand, but I would understand if my opponent thought otherwise and therefore I don't play the card currently. No point antagonising my opponent over a marginal card effect...

So the two interpretations presented comprehensively, based on the assumption that passive effects contain both an initiation and a resolution:
1: Initiation: End of turn
Resolution: You are immediately eliminated from the game
2: Initiation: When played
Resolution: At the end of the turn, you are eliminated from the game

I would be very happy if someone could show me an interpretation of the rules/wording or a anything else that proves me wrong. Seriously. I am wrong quite often when it comes to things such as this and I would love me some Bouncatoth action. :D

#17
Wilbur

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I would tend to view Chess Prodigy (THBtS) as a relic of a more careless design era. That should be a 'response: blahblahblah' in my opinion, like Glaaki (AoA) or many other cards. If Azathoth (SoA) creates a passive effect, as I think it does, it leaves as soon as the condition of that effect (Azathoth's presence in play) is eliminated.

In any event, people do play decks on this assumption, as badash56 stated above. Tom mentioned that one of the FFG designers for CoC (if I'm remembering correctly- I wasn't there) played an Azathoth deck at the warm-up to GenCon last year. Can anyone confirm that?

I understand the syntax of the alternative, I just thought that this particular horse had left the barn. I'm more than willing to say, however, that Azathoth could be re-worded to make the 'you lose' effect a forced response, thus clarifying that it is a triggered effect, but that it does not trigger until the end of turn.

#18
Zephyr

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I think i mailed Damon or something, cant remember exactly now. But if he leaves play before end of turn you wont lose the game. (Oh, I even posted it under Azatoth card entry)

There is a comma between "end of turn" and "you are eliminated". I guess it can mean "end of turn" is timing condition, and "you are eliminated" is the effect. (this is my unconfirmed speculation)

#19
Wilbur

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Oof. Now that I look again... it's still weird. Chess Prodigy couldn't be disrupted by, say, Power Drain (Core), but maybe it could by Performance Artist (Core)... ??? I thought I knew how this game worked! :wacko:

#20
blinovitch

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I am pretty sure it was on the FFG boards that someone took up this point with me and said I couldn't bounce him to avoid the passive effect, but I can only search my posts since the reset of the boards over there so no luck finding the discussion.

There's a way around that limitation. If you do a Google search for the terms "site:community.fantasyflightgames.com azathoth," it returns hits with Azathoth, limited to pages within the community.fantasyflightgames.com domain. So you may still be able to find that conversation, once you add some keywords to winnow results to do with Arkham Horror or Elder Sign.