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Timing Questions? Check here


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31 replies to this topic

#1
JCWamma

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Firstly, if you have any questions about the order that things should happen, I strongly advise checking the Quill and Tankard articles that cover these topics. In my signature there's a link to the master thread of issues, but more specifically if you want to know order of things in the plot phase, the marshalling phase or the challenges phase, check the appropriate links. In the meantime I'm going to run down the answers to some questions I commonly see asked. If you have a timing question perhaps try to ask it here rather than in the main thread, to help people getting too many wires crossed! People can also more easily look to see if their question has already been asked this way. Maybe consider this thread a mini-Q&TR article that I'll add to whenever I can be bothered and that can also function as an FAQ. I intend to update this before too long for some other common timing questions (for instance, what happens when a character dies), but for now I thought I'd start with one that I see asked quite a lot:

Plot Phase

There is a framework window to begin the phase and a framework window to end the phase, with a framework window for determining plots in between them. Between each of the three framework windows there is a player action window, where players have the options in turn of taking standard actions (that is, ones that begin Plot: or Any Phase:).

For the framework window when plots are revealed, the following order of events occurs:

- Plots are chosen but not revealed.
- Nothing happens here unless a player has Dragonstone Port (Core) in play, in which case all players have the option of taking standard actions.
- Plots are revealed.
- Constant effects immediately occur (for instance, the STR reduction from Threat from the North (PotS) (although NOT the "discard" effect, that's a passive), or the location-blanking of Dry Season (CbtC)).
- Initiative is determined.
- The winner of initiative determines first player.
- Any plot with a "When Revealed" effect is initiated (in the case of more than one "When Revealed" effect, the first player determines the order).
For each effect (and this applies to a "When Revealed" effect too), the following order of events happens:
-- Effect is initiated.
-- Save/cancel window (this is where you can save a character from being killed by Valar Morghulis (Core), use Outwit (TIoR) to cancel the resolution of an opponent's plot, and so on).
-- Resolution of plots (The player who revealed Winter Festival (WotN) claims 1 power (or 2 power if it's winter), the player who played Under the Bridge of Dream (VD) adds 2 gold to his or her gold pool, etc. Also, cards who have been given cause to leave play (with the effect of Valar being the most common but far from the only one), and have not been saved in the previous step, become moribund:[place they're getting sent to]. Note that they do not leave play yet. If any of the cards have passive or triggered responses to anything that has happened in this framework window, they may still trigger those responses.
- Once this procedure has been carried out for each plot, the framework window continues.
- Passive responses happen. These are the mandatory effects that all players must strive to remember, that happen because a plot card was revealed, initiative was won, etc. - common examples would be Bay of Ice (KotS) and Golden Tooth Mines (Core). If there is more than one passive response, the first player may determine the order they happen in.
- Triggered responses happen (the ones that begin with Response:). Starting with the first player then moving left, each player has the option to trigger a response if they have one available to them - perhaps to trigger Blood for Blood (PotS), or Cersei's Attendant (Core). Note that moribund cards can still trigger their responses here - how else would Cersei's Attendant ever work otherwise, after all!
- Once all players pass on the ability to trigger a response, moribund cards leave play. The framework window ends and the game progresses.
(- If it's a melee game, you pick titles at this point, starting with the first player and proceeding clockwise)

One important and commonly overlooked note is that you cannot use an Any Phase: action (or Plot: action) once the plot cards have been revealed but before moribund cards leave play. For example, that means that if you have Jeyne Westerling (ASoS) out and Valar Morghulis hits you can't use her effect to search for a King before she leaves play. Likewise if you have an Oldtown Scholar (FtC) with Valyrian Steel Link (HtS) attached you can't kneel him to draw a card before he'd be discarded to Threat from the North (PotS).

To be updated when I can be bothered :).
  • Ratatoskr, emptyrepublic, scantrell24 and 2 others like this

#2
Taughm

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I think this is a timing question. here is the scenario my opponent has a bunch of knelled clansman from declaring a military challenge including Timett Son of Timett (MotM) who participated in the challenge. i lose the challenge can i then play Words Are Like Arrows (WLL) to return Timett Son of Timett (MotM) to hand followed by Red Vengeance (PotS). making him kill his clansman:?

#3
Golladan

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Red Vengeance is a cancel response(response with the word cancel in the effect) and is played as a response to Challenge result is implemented, the 2nd event of the challenge resolution framework window.

Words Are Like Arrows is a regular response and is played much later in step 5 of the framework action window.

Basically it goes something like:

-Winner of the challenge is determined. You lost the military challenge.
-Challenge result is implemented. You choose which characters to kill for Claim.
--You play the cancel response Red Vengeance, canceling what just happened, and having an opponent kill his characters for claim instead. Note that you are still the one that lost the challenge.
--Save responses to save chars from being killed can also be played here. Chars not saved become Moribund
-Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded
-Power for Renown is awarded
-Passive effects go off. This is where Deadly would trigger if there is any.
-Regular responses to anything above can be played. Here is where you can play Words are Like Arrows, selecting any char that is not already Moribund. That char will become Moribund provided the opponent doesn't save him.
-Framework Action Window closes. Any Moribund cards go to their respective out of play area.
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#4
JRoel

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Another thing worth noting in this scenario is that Timmet will still be in play, along with his text, until step 6. So, even if you could have played Red Vengeance where you had wanted to (or if you had some other kill effect to use), knelt clansman would still be unkillable until the response window closed.
  • emptyrepublic, JCWamma and OKTarg like this

#5
Taughm

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thank you for answering my question.

#6
Keggy

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I reveal a plot with a "when revealed" effect. I have one or more Golden Tooth Mines (Core) in play. Which effect goes off first, and (more importantly) where in the rules can I reference to prove it.

#7
Karma

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Keggy read JC's post up above. It answers your question right there. You might actually want to read the first post of a thread before posting on it. It might have the answer to your questions.

#8
Keggy

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If you have a timing question perhaps try to ask it here rather than in the main thread, to help people getting too many wires crossed!


I just wanted to double check and get confirmation in a thread specifically designed for such. Sorry for asking in the first place.

#9
slothgodfather

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JC does cover the use of Golden Tooth mines in his post. If you need official rules, then see the FAQ and check out the timing charts at the back for confirmation. :D


Side note. JC, based on the topic name, I have a feeling this wasn't actually supposed to be an open thread for discussion but rather that you intended to post similar examples for the various phases. Just curious if I was right.

#10
JCWamma

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No need for people to get up in arms about questions, this is just meant to be helpful :).

As far as what this topic is meant to be for, I wanted to summarise some common questions and also invite people to ask their own. If all the timing-based questions are in one thread, then if anyone else has a timing question it's much easier for them to check to see if it's already been asked/answered than traipsing through the main thread. Hopefully over time we can get different threads for the different types of questions and make everything much easier :).
  • slothgodfather and agktmte like this

#11
Karma

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I wasn't upset about the question, i just wanted him to know that by reading the first post of the thread he would have found the answer he was looking for without having to ask. His question was answered in the first post, i was just wanting to let him know is all. I could tell he hadn't read the first post of the thread and thought he should go back and read it as it contained the answer to his question. Thats all i wanted to say.

#12
JRoel

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Karma, it was the inclusion of the whole "maybe you should read the first post is a thread before posting" bit that gave your response an aggressive/hostile tone. At least that's how it read to me, and from his response back, I assume he got the same impression.

#13
Karma

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Well, thats the internet for you. Kinda hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic or poking fun at someone. I try not to get to worked up about things like that on the internet, its hard to tell when someone is being serious or joking.

#14
Rettere

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Just checked the quill and tankard on challenges but did not see any duplicates mentioned. When do duplicates leave play? When the save is triggered or at the end of the entire window when all moribund cards leave play?

My specific example:

Valar Morghulis is played when Melisandre is out with a duplicate, and Dale Seaworth is also out. The Bara player triggers the duplicate to save Mel, then wants to trigger Dale to put the dupe in hand. Is the dupe physically placed in the discard pile before or after the response window for Dale?

#15
cockbongo

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Both Dale and the dupe are moribund:discard pile, and they don't hit the discard pile until after Dale's Response window is closed i'm afraid.

Basically, to trigger Dale's reponse and get something back to hand from the discard pile, something has to physically *be* in the discard pile before the effect that forces him to enter or leave play comes into effect.

I think.
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#16
Rettere

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How does ambushing a defender in work with stealth? Does the attacker always have the opportunity to stealth the ambushed character? (Assuming ambushed character does not have naval).

#17
emptyrepublic

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Does the attacker always have the opportunity to stealth the ambushed character?


Yes. Since Ambush operates as an Any Phase action a character/card can only be ambushed before stealth is declared or after all defenders (non-naval) are declared.

#18
JohnyNFullEffect

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Yes. Since Ambush operates as an Any Phase action a character/card can only be ambushed before stealth is declared or after all defenders (non-naval) are declared.


Woops. I may have cheated a few times. At least they were fun games. Good to know!

#19
cockbongo

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Quick timing question on passive plot effects: if I revealed Dry Season (which blanks all non unique locations) would initiative be calculated before the plot could blank initiative boosts on cards like The Kingsroad, Bay of Ice, etc?

#20
JCWamma

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Good question and one that I forgot to clarify - the blanking would happen first.